What happened to people being held accountable for what they do?

My heart definitly goes out to those who are born into circumstances beyond their control and driven to extreme measures to change their lot in life. Through no fault of their own, people find themselves in abject and dismal surroundings. It's the luck of the draw that we weren't born into a third world country.

That being said, I think we live in a ridiculously litigious society. It blows my mind that I can be sued by someone who hurts themselves, trying to STEAL from me. These cases exsist. I feel awful for the families of the people who died crossing the desert, but if we put out water, isn't that encouraging people to cross? If we've made the laws that it's illegal, how can we then make it easier for the desert to be crossed? Isn't the fact that you are putting your life on the line crossing suppose to be a deterant? If I run at the security gates at the airport, and the guards jump on me, can I sue them for bodily harm? If it's made clear that something is illegal and if you attempt it you could be hurt, whether by the elements or the people who are policing it, shouldn't you be responsible for whatever consequences your actions incur?

There are 2 issues here, 1, showing humanity for the conditions and the plight of those who live less fortunately than us. 2, having responsiblity for our own actions.

I personally hope the case is thrown out, because if the families win, that opens a whole can of worms, and pretty much says that nobody has to be responsible for their actions. If you or I hurt someone defending ourselves, loved ones or possesions, we could be sued by the person we hurt. How flipping crazy is that??? If something is illegal, don't do it, and if you do, be prepared to accept the consequences.

Well said Colby!

Just to get back on topic this thread was started to discuss wether or not the the families of the people who died illegally crossing the desert are entitled to over $3 million per lost loved one.


I don't think they are because if you break the law, you should be willing to deal with the outcome of your actions.

I would just like to say that I hope this lawsuit doesn't fly. Because think of the time wasted by the courts while they chase this ridiculous lawsuit around, taking time from the real issues they should be concentrating on. It reminds me of that lawsuit a few years ago, where a father tried to sue McDonald's for making his kid fat! The kid would go to McDonald's every day of the week to eat his lunch! I mean come on now! Who forced the kid to open his mouth and eat the stuff? The lawsuit fell flat

I am "on the ground" as they say, 60 miles from the Mexican border. These ILLEGAL immigrants are BREAKING the law. Huge signs are posted, along the Mexican side of the border, warning people about the heat and lack of water. The coyotes (immigrant smugglers) tell the crossers that its only a 2-hour walk to Phoenix. Phoenix is 125 MILES, from Tucson.

The illegal crossers cut ranchers' fences, strew trash all over the desert and private property, they steal from houses and they leave the water taps running outside. Also, they steal cars.

One woman is suing because her baby died, while on a 200-mile trek, in 100+ heat. If you or I left our children in a hot car, WE would be prosecuted for child abuse!

These people should not be rewarded for BREAKING THE LAW! THAT'S what it boils down to.

bump

I agree, if you break the law, then you have no right to sue. Period.

So there are signs warning of the perils of crossing the border? Then the judge will have no choice but to throw this out of court - they were warned. Tough luck. If you dont want to risk your life, then do it the legal way.

I am going through INS myself, and while it is a long process, because of 9-11 the red tape is there for the protection of the US people - I can't say I blame them, I would rather get in the US the legal way.

They've made another mess. There is huge forest fire, burning southeast of Tucson. Illegals left their campfire and it spread. There IS a bit of poetic justice, though. About four miles from the original campsite, was a group of drug smugglers. They got away (darn) but the 400 lbs. of pot, that they were smuggling got burned up.

I don't want to hear any sob stories about illegal immigrants. They cost the hard-working TAX-PAYING people of this country, a LOT of money! They can take their lawsuit and put it where the sun don't shine!

imagine being in close proximity to the smoke while the pot was burning........

:eek:

Unfortunately, hospital emergency rooms cannot deny treatment to anyone, who is genuinely ill or hurt. For many years, hospitals, in border towns have been inundated with poor, Mexican women, in the last stages of labor. They know that their children wil be issued a US birth certificate. This entitles those kids to medical care, education, welfare and food stamps. It also serves as a foot in the door, to get the rest of the family into the country.

In most states, schools are supported by property taxes. Every day, thousands of kids cross the border, legally and go to classes in US schools. Guess who's paying for THEIR educations?

In AZ, if I had wanted to send my children to school in a district, in which I didn't live, I would have had to pay tuition and provide their transportation.

Originally posted by katl8e
Unfortunately, hospital emergency rooms cannot deny treatment to anyone, who is genuinely ill or hurt.

Wow! I don't see this as unfortunate at all. I'll bet that if I was travelling through Mexico and got hit by a truck, they wouldn't tell me to go home to get treatment. Should we really turn away seriously sick or injured people just because they are not citizens? That just seems immoral to me.

With that said, I do believe that the system can be and is abused, but I honestly think that our providing medical care to those in need is the only moral thing to do.

I agree with Renae. Anyone in need of treatment should have access to a hospital.

As for the lawsuit, it's ridiculous. It's my understanding that a litigant has to have "clean hands" in order to win a lawsuit. If a burglar trips over the cat and injures himself while attemting to steal something in my home, I am not liable. Of course my legal education comes from that great educational institution of TV.

There is great motivation to work in the US. I used to eat lunch at a Mexican restaurant daily. The young people who worked there almost ran-literally-to serve the customers. I have never seen teenagers-or any other servers work so hard. The assistant manager was a 20 year old girl, who was also studying English at the Community College. Her older brother was one of the owners, and her 21 year old brother was a waiter. Everyone working in the restaurant was Mexican. I became very close friends with these young people, and discovered that minimum wage here was a fortune to them. Since most of the workers were relatives, the owner paid for apartments for them, and enabled them to send most of their "fortune" home to their mothers, who used it to raise their children. They had their tips, of course, and free meals and room. Someone was always calling home from the pay phone outside the restaurant to speak with family in Mexico.

One day I discovered that one of the young boys was only 16. I understand Spanish fairly well, and had overheard a conversation with a friend. He had no green card. I discussed it with him. He explained that he was the sole provider for his family in Mexico. Eventually several of the young people (not the owners-because they were here legally) were arrested and deported. But even if they could send wages home for only a few months, it was worth the chance of being arrested. Their little brothers and sisters ate well for that time. I know my fondness for these young people gives me a different viewpoint, but I have never seen such hard workers in my life. The myth about the lazy Mexican, from what I've seen, is just that, a myth. They were caring young people who had the greatest respect for their parents-and very strong family values.

What would we do if our family was going hungry? (That's a rhetorical question, because I have never even had a speeding ticket.)
It would have taken five years for some of those kids to get a green card . In the meantime, they couldn't go to school. Everyone in the family had to work for a minimum standard of living. It's tragic, and gave me a totally different view of illegal immigrants. I had become their surrogate mother, and miss my "hijos" very much. To this day my conscience bothers me because I could have sponsored one of these boys. Unfortunately, I didn't act quickly enough.

Emergency rooms cannot deny care to those with life-threatening problems. They can and do deny service to anyone who doesn't have insurance that doesn't have a life-threatening situation and cash. I believe I heard on the news that there are only 2 ERs in the Denver-metro area that will work with anyone, and even they are considering revamping that.

Anyway, back on topic. Not everyone who comes over here (legally or illegally) is trying to rape the USA. Many of them come here because even our worst jobs and slums are better than anything they can get there. THAT is the problem that Vicente Fox and Mexico need to address. Many of these immigrants work their butts off and send almost everything back to their families. Lets face it, the immigrants are willing to take the jobs that even our high school kids and people on welfare won't touch. Honestly, many of them have better work ethics than many Americans do.

Having said that, I still don't think that we should open the floodgates and let them all in. I don't think they should be able to sue when something happens to those who are, in fact, breaking the law. I do think when we find them living illegally here they should be sent back.

Did you see on the news today that they found 13 dead in a semi trailer who had suffocated? That is desperation to get to a better place in life. The truck driver was arrested and may get the death penalty for smuggling immigrants that resulted in death.

Tucson has 2 level-1 trauma centers. They are the only ones, south of Phoenix. We are in danger of losing both of them, partially because of the high cost of treating illegal immigrants, picked up in extremis. Add to that, the cost of ambulance or air evacuation. An air ambulance evac costs about $3500, here.

The Federal government is supposed to reimburse local governments, for the costs of treating illegal immigrants, brought in by INS or the Border Patrol but getting the money is like pulling teeth.

The Tohono O'odham tribe is fed up with border crossers, on their reservation, too. They have professonal trackers and regular patrols, along their border with Mexico. Actually, the border runs through the reservation.

It just baffles me that people that are here ILLEGALLY are getting any sort of benefits. If you're not here legally, either as a citizen, or holding a valid visa (whether tourist, work, etc), there should be no priviliages, there should be deportation.

I also think that if there's a woman, who is here illegally, and she gives birth here, that child should NOT be an automatic citizen of this country. It just encourages people to sneak in, give birth, and use the child as a way into the country. What I think should happen is: she gives birth, she's given necessary medical care, and her and her baby are shipped back to their country of origin. This makes sense to me.

The more I think about this subject, the more aggrevated I get.

Its official - Tucson is going to lose one of its trauma centers. The only one, south of Phoenix, will be the University Medical Center. In addition, the county hospital has closed its emergency department to all but psychiatric emergencies. God forbid, we should have a major disaster, here.

I live in San Diego, another hot spot of illegals. You would assume that Americans would get equal treatment in Mexico when it comes to medical assistance, the answer is no. We have a current issue going on here in San Diego where a San Diego resident was in a car accident in Tijuana and severely injured. They put him in the hospital, but they do not have the medical ability to treat people like we do here in the US and they refused to release him until they paid a bribe to government offical of 100,000 US dollars. If you get hurt in Mexico, your best bet is to make tracks for the US--they do it too.

As for the issue of taking responsibility for the results if you commit a crime. I agree whole-heartedly that EVERYONE needs to take responsibility for all their actions, but no one does this any more. Come on, the Twinkee defense? Please!

Oh--the man died because they wouldn't release him.

I'd like to read the newspaper account of that. Do you happen to have a link? That has to be a criminal act!

I went to go search for it in the SD Union Tribune archives (this happened last year) and you now have to be a subscriber. I don't remember the guy's name, but I'll keep looking.

Thanks for trying. You don't have to go to all that trouble!

I've been looking for the news story on and off most of the day--it's sooooo frustrating when you know something's out there and can't find it. One of my hobbies is research (Yeah, it's weird, I know.) and this is really making me googy. I don't think I can find it, but I think the guy's last name was Donaldson or Williamson. Most of his family lives here in San Diego (Rancho Penasquitos) and we actually had to have big meetings between San Diego and Tijuana politicians to get the guy back into the States. He died because the medical aide didn't come fast enough. I'll keep looking (because I WANT to find it now), but it may take a bit.

I don't like to give up either. I know the feeling, but please don't do it for me!

I'm not doing it for you now. I'm doing it for me. LOL Peace of mind that I'm not nuts. You know?

:D

In Australia, there was a similiar case in the late 80s, possibly early 90s where illegal immigrants wanted to sue the Australian government for keeping them detained for too long and having long procedures in having their claims verified. They wanted a total of $180 million of taxpayer's money.

It was thrown out of court. The reason why they were kept for over a year and in some cases, several years was that the paperwork and ID that most of them had were false and claims of who they really were had to be sorted out with the relevant country that they claimed to have been from. Once this was done, applications for refugee status were processed, and those had their applications denied appealed. It was the appeal process that lengthened their stay. Needless to say, it didn't help their plight or gain any significant sympathy.

That must've been irritating for the Australians. The illegal immigrants here want to sue us because we caught the coyote smuggling them in and the coyote has usually done something to hurt or kill them. Why don't the sue the coyote if they're going to sue someone?

The coyote doesn't have millions to give if they sue it. However, the USA government does. It's all greed.

The season has begun. Four dead illegals were found, last weekend. For a while, the newspapers were referring to the as "undocumented immigrants". After many letters to the editor, the conservative afternoon paper is back to calling them what they are - ILLEGAL aliens.

I just received an email from my cousin who's been doing a lot of research on Illegal Immigrants. I thought I'd share this email with everyone here in case if you were interested.
***********
Hi everyone!

Most of you know me pretty well and know that I'm very
concerned with the
HUGE illegal immigrantion problem that exists here in the
U.S. I've been
receiving infomation on various issues from the "capwiz"
website. I have
already signed the petition and submitted it. This is just
one small step
we as Americans can do to start pressuring the President
and Congress to do
the right thing, which is protect Americans and our way of
life above that
of illegal people entering or overstaying their welcome..

For the sake of our children and grand-children, PLEASE
take a minute and at
least go to the site listed below and read the petition to
limit
immigrantion. I know the first reaction is that it does no
good to contact
Congress.....believe me it does make a difference. For too
long, we average
Americans have just sit by and "LET" the special interest
groups run this
country into the ground. The grassroot movement to change
things is here,
every Americans voice counts!

If you don't want me to sent any future political
information to you, please
just respond, no hard feelings. I know this is not for
everyone. Thanks
for hearing me out!

Petition (http://capwiz.com/caps/mailreader/?mid=2539566)

thought I'd bump this up in case if someone missed it!

Ty, I thought you'd appreciate seeing that petition!:)

Just found this thread...

We have a huge number of illegal immigrants here in San Antonio - it's getting to where you almost need to speak Spanish just to get by or get a job here. Our representatives are hard at work trying to find a way to legitimize the presence of the illegal immigrants - the ILLEGAL part is just ignored, while people who are waiting to immigrate legally wait on...(and an exploding population simultaneously drains our water supplies and paves over our aquifer).

One really neat thing that I heard this weekend on National Public Radio was a story about some people that had come to the U.S. from Mexico, made a successful living, then RETURNED to Mexico to run for office & try to change things. That's what really needs to happen...instead of blaming the U.S. for not doing enough to accomodate an illegal activity, they should look in the mirror and wonder - Why are people in such a hurry to risk their lives and leave family & friends behind to get out of Mexico & into the U.S.? Mexico is very rich in natural resources; if the country was well run, they could be just as well off as the U.S.! Instead, the government is corrupt, and crime & poverty are completely out of control.

Rather than stay here & try to turn Texas (& eventually the U.S.) into Mexico, they really should go back & try to turn the country around. I greatly admire those who do - they've got a long, tough road ahead, but they're doing the right thing.

And bill the Mexican government for the transportation services, too!
;)

As a child growing up in New Mexico, I remember visiting my Grandparents' ranch 'out in the middle of nowhere' and hearing a car go down the highway (sound travels far out there) once every day or two in the seventies and early eighties. Now, the land is getting split up into smaller and smaller portions, rivers are drying up, and there is traffic on the highway! TRAFFIC! :cringe:
Families here in Texas that have owned ranches for generations are being taxed off of it, while endless housing developments blight the countryside.

Are our children and grandchildren going to wonder what trees looked like? What 'wide-open spaces' were? Because other countries that can't control their population growth send their overflow here? I know this sounds callous, and the suffering in some countries is really terrible, but the problem needs to be resolved in the country of origin, not exported. People and individuals are only appreciated when they're not crowded too closely...community is wonderful; seething crowds are a nightmare!

BTW, we Americans really need to work on reducing the size of our 'environmental footprints', too, but that's another subject.

Very interesting discussion! I don't know about any of the specifics of this issue, but I won't let that stop me from drawing a possibly inappropriate analogy. Since we're all cat people (and to be sure some of us will feed any stray cat that comes our way) we can understand the situation. I mean, stray/feral cats are definately considered a nuisance in many neighborhoods; they dig up yards, leave their "gifts" lying around, howl, fight, mate, produce loads of kittens, and generally annoy. Most people feel the way about these cats the way we tend to feel about illegal immigrants.

I guess one thing to consider is, why do we show such compassion, patience, and understanding with cats but we can't do the same for human beings? The other thing, and I think it's important, is that we consider why these people are coming over here. Why do cats come to an area? Food source, plain and simple. Without the food source, they won't come. So who's the "food" source for immigrants? Whoops, we have to point the finger at good ol' Americans, who are ready and willing to take jobs away from us hard working "legals" and give them to the illegals for half the pay. As long as that system is in place, they will come, and no amount of mass deportation will stop that (just like removing a cat from an area will only create a vacuum). It always bothers me when people (not anyone here, just in general) complain about illegal immigration without considering the cause of it. Kind of like how some people (again, no one here) complain about black people in America, and conveniently forget that they were brought here for free labor.

As far as countries sending their overflow to America, well, isn't that how this country came to be? I'm sure the Native Americans felt the same way; "Why are these British coming over here, taking our land, destroying our ways and culture, just because they don't like the religious and political situation in their country? Why can't they just stay there and fix things?"

Oops, forgot to talk about the actual topic! Uh, yeah, they shouldn't have the right to sue. I just wonder who was on the jury that found in favor of the guy who hurt himself while robbing someone. It just boggles the mind.

Good point, and not too bad of an analogy, either. The difference is that we're dealing with human beings who should ideally be able to organize & change things, rather than cats responding simply to instinct. Education can change humans; we have the power to affect our destinies.

I do like the cat analogy in the mention of following the food source. It's irresponsible to continue to allow the influx of immigrants without addressing the root of the problems in the nations of origin, just as it is pointless (though it can be gratifying) to feed a stray colony without addressing spay/neuter and immunizations. You're right - as long as there is desperation at home, people will try to get to the food source. The Mexican people who succeed in the U.S. and return to try and improve the desperate situation in Mexico can (sort of) be compared to test/spay/neuter release programs in feral colonies. Or is that too much of a stretch? ;) Hopefully they can make a difference in their home countries, so that people will stop abandoning family, friends and country, risking their lives to get to the U.S..

*As far as America's immigrant history goes, yes, I'm sure that the Native Americans (who were also immigrants waaayyy back when, too) would have loved it if everyone else had stayed away, but what's done is done, and it may be sad, but I'm worried about the future - and everyone's future, too. Things need to change in these countries - there simply isn't enough inhabitable land left to accommodate an endless influx of people, and still allow us to be the world's breadbasket, too.

My worry is that if things don't change in these desperate countries, and we don't change our policies, that we'll end up in the same boat - then where will people go for refuge?:(

OK, ok, this is getting to be way too :fireblob: for me...

Yes, the immigrants were stupid to come in spite of warning signs and even more stupid to sue.

Don't forget, though, that there are good and bad people of all races, and there are positives and negatives in all cultures. Sounds like you've been exposed to more of the bad. :( There is a lot of it, unfortunately.

Please remember, as stated in the rules-

We are a worldwide forum and therefore a mix of different cultures, races and religions; there is always room for different opinions, however, intolerance, bigotry, and religious ridicule will not be tolerated.