In an effort to keep the two other threads to the purpose they were started for, I'm starting a thread for anyone who still wants to share their personal opinions about the War in Iraq. This is a FRESH START, no hurt feelings allowed from the past threads. :)

The other threads are:

A moment of prayer at the brink of war (http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16360) (Sending thoughts and prayers to all those affected)

The War has Started (http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16466) (News updates on what's happening)

Please, let's keep this civil, respect one another even if you vehemently disagree, stay away from personal attacks or insane accusations, and please don't take things personally. This is obviously a very hot topic and emotions run high. Those emotions (I hope ;) ) aren't directed at anyone personally but to the situation at hand.

Thank you, and carry on!

i slept all morning, did the news say what was going to happen today and what is this shock and awe thing?

We're bombing Baghdad again. Looks as though its more widespread, than last night.

Closer to home, the Secretary of Energy has reported a "possible" terrorist threat, to the Palo Verde nuclear power plant, west of Phoenix. That's the largest nuke plant, in the country. Its only about 200 miles, from where I live and about 50 west of the Phoenix metro area.

It began a few minutes ago, Kellye. It is supposed to be huge. God bless the innocents, the children, especially. I hope they left the city of Baghdad!

Cindy - please keep safe! I am keeping your region in my prayers.

It seems everybody was waiting for the war to start over there. I've also wondered when/if the terrorist attacks would start over here.

The nuclear thing is really scary.

incredibly scary. cindy, i am hoping you will be safe. you are precious to all of us.

but sometimes watching the basketball takes off the tension and worry, jakes watching it right now.

but sometimes watching the basketball takes off the tension and worry, jakes watching it right now.

true. editing former post -- posted that purely on emotion without thinking. :rolleyes:

Sometimes the news goes overboard with coverage. We all know we can watch CNN or Fox News to get updates. It is nice to have some sense of normalcy.

I also live near a nuclear power plant. Three Mile Island is only about 25 miles from here. Some people thought the plane that crashed in Somerset, PA might have been targetting TMI.

I really hate that it's come to this, but I also think Saddam Hussein is a dangerous person who has to be dealt with. Appeasement didn't work for Europe with Hitler, and it wasn't working with Saddam. I am sad that some civilians will more than likely get killed. It is sad that some of the troops will also lose their lives, I feel badly for their families.

I'm not too worried about the PV nuke plant. Its been pretty well guarded, since 9/11 and, yesterday, the governor sent a National Guard unit out there. On top of them, there are constant overflights of F-16 and F-18s out of Luke AFB. The Marines, from the Yuma Air Station are patrolling, too.

We used to have Nike missile sites surrounding the Pittsburgh area, but they're obsolete and gone. There is a nuclear plant closer to billchamb, but within about 45 miles of my house. I wish they'd get rid of nuclear plants altogether. I know that's controversial, but I did quite a bit of research on them for a long paper I wrote in college, and the more I learned, the more frightened I got. So many warning signals went off accidentally at TMI that noone paid attention to them, and we were only 60-90 minutes from meltdown. Frightening! Cindy, my prayers are with you.

Having unfortunately managed to have been downwind of both Three Mile Island and Chernobyl when the "China Syndrome" became reality, I can sympathize. I hate to think of what the people, especially children, in Baghdad are going through, and what the soldiers are facing. I just hope it's over with quickly.

I've been watching the air assault on Baghdad. According to military analysts, the Iraqis are blindly shooting AAA, into the air, hoping to hit something, anything. Their fire is useless because our planes fly too high to be hit by AAA and missiles fly too fast. Those shells are coming down, somewhere, though and, sooner or later, somebody is going to be hit.

That's why it is illegal here to fire a weapon into the air. Some years ago, a little girl was killed in Phoenix, by a bullet fire into the air on New Year's Eve. She was quite a long way from where the bullet was fired.

what are AAA?
:confused:

anti aircraft artillery shells

You Go! Hissy... I was going to take a stab at it and say Anti-American-Ammo - LOL!

OK...OK...Just kidding...


>^,,^<
Kim

:LOL: Kim

Sorry, I've spent so many years, as a military brat, that i forget that not everyone knows the lingo.:anon:

Picked up some more info off of MSNBC. There is over 150 billion dollars, in Iraqi assets sitting in a UN escrow account. These are the revenues from the oil-for-food program. All of those oil deals are now nullified and France and Germany had the biggest stakes. THAT'S why those countries have been so dead set against taking out Saddam. THEY are the ones, who want the oil.

The US has removed 600,000 tons of wheat, from government reserves ans selling it, in order to buy a comparable amout of rice, to feed the Iraqi people, when this thing is over. The money in that escrow account will also be used for humanitarian aid and to rebuild the country.

Once the situation is stabilized, the UN will continue to administer the oil revenues until Iraq has a government that will put its people first.

Anti-war protestors in Portland are burning American Flags in the downtown area..!

Let tem go to Iraq and burn an Iraqi flag and see what happens to them!

You know there are effective ways to get your point across, but burning the American flag is not the way to go. :(

I not only don't understand these protesters, I can't stand them! If you hate your country enough to burn the flag DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU ON THE WAY OUT!!! These people who go to Riot Class to learn how to disrupt society while still not letting anyone know what the hell you're so against! They make the news, but generally, I never know what they are protesting.

Sorry for the rant, I know it's OT, but I just cannot FATHOM what these people are thinking!!!

I agree Heidi- it is hard to understand the mindset of people like that so filled with hate. My thought is turn the fire hoses on them to douse the fires....

Have you noticed how many of the anti-war protesters bring in other issues that are totally unrelated? For example, I saw one of the recent protests in DC on C-SPAN, and they mentioned freeing Mummia, the guy who shot 2 police officers. How is that appropriate in an anti-war protest? If you're going to protest, you should at least stick to the topic, unless you really have nothing to say.

A thousand protesters have shut down Lake Shore Drive, in Chicago, too.

I'll accede to anyone's right to peacefully protest but they don't have the right to disrupt other people's access and lives or vandalize property.

A bunch went onto a pedestrian bridge, over a major street, here and padlocked a sign to it. They also sprayed anti-war graffitti on it. That is vandalism and I hope they are caught and prosecuted.

Several were arrested at our Federal Building, recently. They were physically blocking the entrances, were politely asked to leave and didn't. They were all cited for trespassing.

There's a flag flying on the front of my house. Nobody had better try to burn THAT one!

There was one protestor in San Francisco who climbed on top of the Golden Gate Bridge, chanting anti-war slogans and leaped to his death. :(

Originally posted by hissy
There was one protestor in San Francisco who climbed on top of the Golden Gate Bridge, chanting anti-war slogans and leaped to his death. :(

Some people get a little too carried away, or maybe he was mentally unstable. Protest if the mood strikes you, but not if you're going to hurt other people or yourself. Or destroy property.

Hello, everyone.

I am new here, and I am eagerly reading everything you guys are writing aboout cats, and now I finished reading all the threads regarding the war.

I am an Israeli, and I wanted to take this chance and thank everyone - in America.
It no secret how scared we all were in the last 48 hours. I was terrified, and I tried on my gas-mask, which really freaked me out (the authorities directed everyone to do so).

I see the lit-up sky of Bagdad on the news, and my knees shake... I can't help remember all the rough moment in the last war. The biggest fear was what will happen to my cats!!! I wish I could calm them down. I try to stay calm myself, but seeing me with a gas mask - really scared them!!! poor babies.

Anyway - after last night's huge strike on Bagdad, some American soldiers were interviewed on the Israeli TV - they are stationed in Israel, and are in charge of protecting us (along with our military) in case of a missile attack. They were amazing! they told everyone they can sleep tight, that they are protecting us. That really affected me! I feel so much better.

So thank you all! Im glad that Saddam is dealt with, because he already threatened to throw a nuclear bomb on Israel. I just wish every innocent person will stay safe.

As a volunteer in a cat's shelter, I see how the situation affects the cats (people abandon them out of fear). I wish there was something I could do.:vancat:

I wish you all peace, and may this war will be over soon. I am grateful for a friend like America.

:girly1: KatieCat :kitty:

Nunny, welcome and how wonderful to have you here! I am looking forward to reading your posts. Be safe!:)

Hi nunny :)
I'm mostly trying to stay out of the war threads (I read, just don't post. :) ), but I noticed you were new, and wanted to welcome you to the site! :D We have a 'New Cats on the Block' forum you can introduce yourself in. :)

As for the war... I'm just hoping it ends soon, with as few casualties as possible. I do fear for those who are much closer to the war, such as yourself and our board's owner, Anne (and her family). Let's just hope the war is quick and effective. :)

i really don't like war, but we are in a war so I feel we need to show our support. Dh and i were watching the news and they showed protester being drug out by police and stuff. I personally think that the police should be patrolling and making sure nothing funny is going on, not having to worry about protesters. I don't think anyone really wants to be having a war but we are and that is that.

Some of those people are "professional protesters". They latch onto any radical cause and spend their time traveling from protest to protest. Wonder how they support themselves?

Well, the sun is up and I'm going to put up my flag.

Some of those people are "professional protesters". They latch onto any radical cause and spend their time traveling from protest to protest. Wonder how they support themselves?

LOL! I saw a reporter last night interviewing one particular moron war protestor...When asked where Iraq was located on the map, this PROTESTOR had no idea...worse yet, when asked who the leader of Iraq was...by golly, she didn't know.

The reporter was stunned because MAJORITY of the protestors he was interviewing didn't have a clue.....(It was a group of students taking advantage of a "excused day off " from school)



>^,,^<
Kim

LOL! I saw a reporter last night interviewing one particular moron war protestor...When asked where Iraq was located on the map, this PROTESTOR had no idea...worse yet, when asked who the leader of Iraq was...by golly, she didn't know.

In all fairness, I wonder what would happen if you went out an polled a large, random number of people. Unfortunately, I believe a good number, if not the majority, wouldn't be able to answer these questions either. I watched the first episode of that new reality shoe "All American Girl". They presented as humorous the fact that many of the girls didn't know what two countries bordered the US! And those are our neighboring countries!

dh said he thinks alot of the people just want to get out of school and work and would protest anything. It's so sad because they are wasting alot of peoples time!

Is it legal to clean up these protests with a fire hose?

>^,,^<
Kim

I am appalled that several schools here are staging protests as a "class project", during school hours. No wonder the kids don't learn how to read and write - their teachers are too busy indoctrinating them with their own liberal political views.

If I still had kids in school, I think that I'd have to scrimp to send them to private schools, where they'd actually learn something useful.

When people here in the U.S. protest the war they're just considered anit-war demonestrators. When the very same thing happens in a foreign country it's called an anti-American protest. I was wondering if there was an actual difference in people's attitudes or is it just the way the media chooses to present the protest in foreign countries?????

BTW, I am really embarassed by the way some of our leaders make our country look to others.

That protest where they burned the flag, around midnight, one of the crowd thought it in his best interest to assault a police officer, so he threw acid at the cop! :onfire:

Thankfully, the policeman had a full riot shield on and the plastic melted and not his face! After that the gloves came off and the cops got into an aggressive line and chased the people away. It took some time but the crowd finally left.

it probably is not legal to turn fire hoses on people. I said that out of frustration and reaction of being a military brat. My father was a medical officer in the Navy for over 30 years. He served WWII,and Korea and brought all of us up to respect the flag, the country and the men and women who fight or have fought for it. in He is going to be a part of the Veteran's History Project and I can't wait to hear his story. It will really be the first time he will have openly talked about what it was like. My mother said that what he saw during those wars changed him forever. So I have strong patriotic pride when it comes to this country and it is not something I will ever be ashamed of. :)


nunny welcome to the board too! It is nice to have you here with us, and I hope in the days ahead your country and the people within stay safe.

Eight protesters were arrested, at the Federal Building here yesterday. So far, none of them have been violent.

Why is it that people, who are supposedly demostrating for peace, feel the need to throw rocks, bricks and acid, to make their point? Doesn't seem very peaceful to me and it certainly doesn't help their cause.

I found this Article online...thought I was interesting enough to share.......I know it's long....(forgive me)

The Hollywood group is at it again. Holding antiwar rallies, screaming about the Bush Administration, running ads in major newspapers, defaming the President and his Cabinet every chance they get, to anyone and everyone who will listen. They publicly defile them and call them names like "stupid," "morons," and "idiots". Jessica Lange went so far as to tell a crowd in Spain that she hates President Bush and is embarrassed to be an American.

So, just how ignorant are these people who are running the country? Let's look at the biographies of these "stupid", "ignorant" , "moronic" leaders, and then at the celebrities who are castigating them:

President George W. Bush:
Received a Bachelors Degree from Yale University and an MBA from Harvard Business School. He served as an F-102 pilot for the Texas Air National Guard. He began his career in the oil and gas business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy industry until 1986. He was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. In a historic re-election victory, he became the first Texas Governor to be elected to consecutive four-year terms on November 3, 1998 winning 68.6 percent of the vote. In 1998 Governor Bush won 49 percent of the Hispanic vote, 27 percent of the African-American vote, 27 percent of Democrats and 65 percent of women. He won more Texas counties, 240 of 254, than any modern Republican other than Richard Nixon in 1972 and is the first Republican gubernatorial candidate to win the heavily Hispanic and Democratic border counties of El Paso, Cameron and Hidalgo.
Someone began circulating a false story about his I.Q. being lower than any other President. If you believed it, you might want to go to URBANLEGENDS.COM and see the truth.

Vice President Dick Cheney:
Earned a B.A. in 1965 and a M.A. in 1966, both in political science. Two years later, he won an American Political Science Association congressional fellowship. One of Vice President Cheney's primary duties is to share with individuals, members of Congress and foreign leaders, President Bush's vision to strengthen our economy, secure our homeland and win the War on Terrorism. In his official role as President of the Senate, Vice President Cheney regularly goes to Capital Hill to meet with Senators and members of the House of Representatives to work on the Administration's legislative goals. In his travels as Vice President, he has seen first hand the great demands the war on terrorism is placing on the men and women of our military, and he is proud of the tremendous job they are doing for the United States of America.

Secretary of State Colin Powell:
Educated in the New York City public schools, graduating from the City College of New York (CCNY), where he earned a Bachelor's Degree in geology. He also participated in ROTC at CCNY and received a commission as an Army second lieutenant upon graduation in June 1958. His further academic achievements include a Master of Business Administration Degree from George Washington University. Secretary Powell is the recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards and decorations. Secretary Powell's civilian awards include two Presidential Medals of Freedom, the President's Citizens Medal, the Congressional Gold Medal, the Secretary of State Distinguished Service Medal, and the Secretary of Energy Distinguished Service Medal. Several schools and other institutions have been named in his honor and he holds honorary degrees from universities and colleges across the country. (Note: He retired as Four Star General in the United States Army)

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld:
Attended Princeton University on Scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator; Congressional Assistant to Rep. Robert Griffin (R-MI), 1957-59; U.S. Representative, Illinois, 1962-69; Assistant to the President, Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Director of the Cost of Living Council, 1969-74; U.S. Ambassador to NATO, 1973-74; head of Presidential Transition Team, 1974; Assistant to the President, Director of White House Office of Operations,White House Chief of Staff, 1974-77; Secretary of Defense, 1975-77.

Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge:
Raised in a working class family in veterans' public housing in Erie. He earned a scholarship to Harvard, graduating with honors in 1967. After his first year at The Dickinson School of Law, he was drafted into the U.S. Army, where he served as an infantry staff sergeant in Vietnam, earning the Bronze Star for Valor. After returning to Pennsylvania, he earned his Law Degree and was in private practice before becoming Assistant District Attorney in Erie County. He was elected to Congress in 1982. He was the first enlisted Vietnam combat veteran elected to the U.S. House, and was overwhelmingly re-elected six times.

National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice:
Earned her Bachelor's Degree in Political Science, Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981. (Note: Rice enrolled at the University of Denver at the age of 15, graduating at 19 with a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science (Cum Laude). She earned a Master's Degree at the University of Notre Dame and a Doctorate from the University of Denver's Graduate School of International Studies. Both of her advanced degrees are also in Political Science.) She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded Honorary Doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, and the University of Notre Dame in 1995. At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions. From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military. She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors. She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula. In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco. Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she resides in Washington, D.C.

So who are these celebrities? What is their education? What is their experience in affairs of State or in National Security? While I will defend to the death their right to express their opinions, I think that if they are going to call into question the intelligence of our leaders, we should also have all the facts on their educations and background:

Barbra Streisand : Completed high school—Career: Singing and acting

Cher: Dropped out of school in 9th grade—Career: Singing and acting

Martin Sheen: Flunked exam to enter University of Dayton—Career:Acting

Jessica Lange: Dropped out college mid-freshman year.—Career: Acting

Alec Baldwin: Dropped out of George Washington U. after scandal. Career:Acting

Julia Roberts: Completed high school.—Career: Acting

Sean Penn: Completed High school—Career: Acting

Susan Sarandon: Degree in Drama from Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.—Career: Acting

Ed Asner; Completed High school—Career: Acting

George Clooney: Dropped out of University of Kentucky—Career: Acting

Michael Moore: Dropped out first year University of Michigan—Career:Movie Director

Sarah Jessica Parker, Completed High School— Career: Acting

Jennifer Anniston: Completed High School—Career: Acting

Mike Farrell: Completed High school— Career: Acting

Janeane Garofelo: Dropped out of College—Career: Stand up comedienne

Larry Hagman: Attended Bard College for one year—Career: Acting

While comparing the education and experience of these two groups, we should also remember that President Bush and his cabinet are briefed daily, even hourly, on the War on Terror and threats to our security. They are privy to information gathered around the world concerning the Middle East, the threats to America, the intentions of terrorists and terrorist-supporting governments. They are in constant communication with the CIA, the FBI, Interpol, NATO, The United Nations, our own military, and that of our allies around the world. We cannot simply believe that we have full knowledge of the threats because we watch CNN!! We cannot believe that we are in any way as informed as our leaders.

i wann Welcome Nunny! :wavey:


Here in San Francisco:

So far, about 1500 anti-war protestors have been arrested. It costs SF City about $450,000 a day for hire police to curb these demonstrators.

i think some of these protestors seized the chaotic opportunity to create trouble. Some of them have weapons, guns, knives, etc in their bags.

More than 100 students from UC berkeley were arrested yesterday.

Many businesses in the downtown shopping areas and the financial district have been disrupted by these demonstrators. In addition, they have also posed problems for commuters.

Yesterday, many protestors tried to enter the Bay bridge, but was stopped by the police. If i did not hear wrong, 14 were arrested for attempting to enter the bridge, despite several warnings from police.

i wonder how SF is going to be like if terrorists were to strike now? Also, the emergency medic is very much affected, and we really need these people to be alert in times of actual emergencies, not exhausted out, helping with these protests.

looks like the shock and awe attack is under way.....

Originally posted by nunny
Anyway - after last night's huge strike on Bagdad, some American soldiers were interviewed on the Israeli TV - they are stationed in Israel, and are in charge of protecting us (along with our military) in case of a missile attack. They were amazing! they told everyone they can sleep tight, that they are protecting us. That really affected me! I feel so much better.

I have tears in my eyes after reading this. Thank you Nunny, for posting that.

God bless you and your people and keep them safe.

Sure does, Kellye. I hope it is over fast and the Iraqis don't do what we think they are capable of, using chem or bio weapons, using US and UK uniforms and attacking their own people to blame on us, etc.

im just crying seeing this

Thanks, Nunny. Its nice to know that somebody out there likes us. Welcome to the site and keep safe.

Reports are coming in, that senior Iraqi military officials are attempting surrender talks. According to Gen. Schwartzkopff (sp?), if Saddam was still in control, these guys would be dead. He's been known to shoot dissenting officials, on the spot.

Peter Arnett reports at least 25 buildings destroyed, in Baghdad, within 10 minutes. Between the cruise missiles and 2000+ lb. bombs, there isn't anything left of government buildings in Baghdad.

So far, only 14 deaths, on our side. This is very well-handled campaign. Considering the number of troops, that's well under what could have been expected. I feel for the families of those that died but it was for a good cause and they can be proud of them.

Nunny... i feel for you .. ALOT!

i experienced a lot of fear when faced with earthquakes here in Northern California.

Furniture tumbled, glasses were broken, things were at a disarray, and we had to hide under tables and in between corridors when the earthquakes occurred.

i can imagine what it is like for you now, Nunny. The loud bombings, wearing uncomfortable and bulky gas masks, fearing for what is coming next, etc.

i shall be praying for your well-being and safety. i was praying fervently for the soldiers at war, and am sad to learn of several deaths today.

Nunny, could the kitties' ears be stuffed with small cotton balls? Hopefully, this will alleviate some fears arising from the loud noise.

Stay safe, Nunny, and give the kitties a hug and kiss for me!

Saddam has put a bounty of soldier's heads- $14,000 dead, $28,000 alive- I shudder to think about what he would do to a soldier captured and brought to him. :(

I am also a patriot. My eyes fill with tears when I see the Stars and Stripes fly, and I stand with awe when I hear the Star Spangled Banner. I love my country because we have the right to believe what we think is right, and criticize our government when we think it's in error, even if we are Democrats under a Republican administration, or that our job is in the arts, such as drama or music.

We have that right whether we have a high school education or we have doctorates and master's degrees. That's what freedom of speech means. The Bill of Rights protects these rights. So, let us not stop with the statement made by Stephen Decatur in 1816, "My country, right or wrong," but, as elaborated upon in 1871 by Senator Carl Schurz, former General of the Army, "When right, be kept right; when wrong, to be put right."
God bless America, and let us pray that she be guided in what is right.

I heard that this morning on the way to work. Sounds like a desperate measure to me. He's also offering $33,000 for any planes or helicopter that's shot down.

CNN has now been kicked out of Iraq, as well as Fox (about a week or two ago for Fox). Going to be interesting how the reporters will be reporting it after that.

Fortunately, I don't think that's an issue. At this point, if Saddam is still alive, he's burrowed into a bunker. One of his own inner circle may grow some cojones and take him out. They have got to know that there's no way he's going to stay in power.

One of his own inner circle may grow some cojones and take him out

what are cojones?

:confused:

sorry im clueless....

but in any case, i hope so too, especially to further lessen the risk of losing innocent lives.

Peter Arnadt is still in Baghdad on assignment for National Geographic anyone heard that he was asked to leave? I guess these reporters are adrenaline junkies like extreme athletes? No amount of money is worth putting themselves in the danger they are in right now. Peter Bloom is bouncing across the desert with the 7th Calvary.

cojones means balls...guts...chutzpa

Peter Arnett is still there but CNN reporters are being thrown out - haven't found out why, yet.

So, who is filming all of this footage we are seeing in Bagdad?

MSNBC and Al-Jazeera.

What a job.....BRAVE.

Guess that CNN isn't leaving, after all. Wolf Blitzer is still on the air.

Looks as though the bombing has stopped, for now. The Iraqi military has to be in total disarray, though. Communications, command and control facilities just aren't there, any more.

That vidio of the bombing of Baghdad this noon is awesome. My jaw droped when i saw it. I was shocked. And we all saw it live vidio streem. Isent that incredible? It truly is a small world when we can watch whats happening on the other side of the planet.

US, Britain race into Iraq, see war over soon
22 March 2003

SOUTHERN IRAQ: US and British officers predicted a swift victory overnight (NZT) after American armoured columns raced deep into Iraq and British marines seized vital oil facilities in the south.

With Iraq putting up only sporadic resistance, the United States said it hoped to achieve its war goal of toppling President Saddam Hussein without bringing all its firepower to bear.

Iraq ridiculed the claims of early successes and said the invaders would not leave the country alive. Victory was guaranteed for Iraq, Interior Minister Mahmoud Diyab al-Ahmed told a news conference as he brandished an assault rifle.

Reuters correspondent Luke Baker, with the US 3rd Infantry Division, had advanced at least 150km into Iraq from Kuwait by early yesterday, speeding north towards Baghdad, after the land war began on Thursday night (NZT).

British commandos, in a seaborne assault, captured the Faw peninsula on Iraq's southern tip and took control of key oil installations.

US Marines met tougher resistance at the Iraqi port of Umm Qasr, on the Kuwaiti border, Britain said.

The Marines, operating as part of a British-led force raised the Stars and Stripes over the new port area but were still fighting to secure the whole town.

Hundreds of Iraqis surrendered. Some were killed.

Eight Britons and four Americans also died in a helicopter crash in Kuwait - the invading forces' first casualties of the war. One US Marine was reported killed in combat.

US military vehicles rolled across the desert, passing oil fields where Reuters reporter Sean Maguire said he saw towering flames and smoke. British Defence Minister Geoff Hoon said Iraqi troops had set up to 30 oil wells ablaze.

"There was no gunfire. They had a clear path," Maguire said of the long column of military vehicles from the 1st Marine Regiment with which he was travelling. He passed the wrecks of Soviet-made Iraqi tanks destroyed in the 1991 Gulf War.

However correspondent Adrian Croft, attached to a different US Marine unit, said it was pinned down for two hours just inside Iraq by anti-tank missiles and small arms fire. It advanced again after calling in British artillery support.

Live television footage showed US tank units ploughing across the sand with no sign of Iraqi forces, in what appeared to be a flanking move across the western desert, bypassing the cities of the Tigris and Euphrates valleys.

A top US commander predicted a swift victory.

"We're into this now, we're going to win it and we're going to win it fast," Rear Admiral John Kelly, commander of the USS Abraham Lincoln battle group, said.

A British spokesman, Group Captain Al Lockwood, asked when invading troops would be in the Iraqi capital, told reporters: "If I were a betting man, which I'm not - hopefully in the next three or four days."

At a Baghdad news conference, Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf declared the invasion would fail.

"We will not let them leave the swamp they have entered. They will meet their fate," he said.

Baghdad was quiet yesterday, the Muslim holy day, after a second volley of US and British cruise missiles rained down overnight following the opening raid last morning.

One of the targets struck by the missile salvo was Saddam's vast Baghdad palace complex on the banks of the Tigris River. Another housed an office of Deputy Prime Minister Tareq Aziz.

The ruins of a compound used by Saddam's younger son and heir apparent Qusay was still smouldering after 24 hours. Sahaf said Saddam and his family were safe, dismissing speculation in the West they might have died in the attack.

In Washington, Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the United States still hoped a full-scale war could be averted to oust Saddam and destroy suspected weapons of mass destruction.

"Pressure is continuing on the Iraqi regime," Rumsfeld said, saying Washington hoped it would fall "without the full force and fury of a war".

The widespread opposition to the war around the world showed no sign of abating. Russian President Vladimir Putin, who had sought with French and German leaders to stop the conflict, called it a "potential source of instability for other regions".

Thousands of demonstrators took to the streets of Australia, Egypt and Yemen following major protests in several countries on Thursday.

The invasion marked the first use of a new US strategic doctrine of pre-emptively attacking any country seen to pose a threat. Washington says Iraq has chemical and biological weapons and could give them to terrorist groups. Iraq denies this.

The British assault on Faw by Royal Marine commandos began before dawn with an airborne and amphibious assault on the coast to secure Iraq's main oil pipeline terminals.

Scores of Iraqis had surrendered.

"There's guys popping up all over the place," Colonel Steve Cox, commander of the landing force, told Reuters correspondent Peter Graff on the aircraft carrier Ark Royal.

Television footage showed demoralised Iraqis in civilian clothes, apparently troops, surrendering to British commandos on a road. A British commander said at least 250 others had surrendered to US Marines.

At Umm Qasr, Hoon said Iraq was putting up "stern resistance".

"The Iraqis are not simply giving up in the way that some commentators have suggested that they would, and our forces are fighting," he told British television.

British forces said their aim was to capture the port of Basra, Iraq's second city, to open it to aid supplies.

In northern Iraq, a reporter for Qatar's al-Jazeera television said the city of Mosul had been rocked by explosions, but there was no immediate confirmation of a BBC report that US special forces may have secured oil fields at Kirkuk.

In a further setback for US plans to enter northern Iraq, the use of Turkish airspace by US planes, although approved by the Ankara parliament, remained held up by disagreement over the terms of the deal, Turkish foreign ministry sources said.

how long do you think it will be before its over?

Gen. Schwartzkopf said that HE was awed and I don't think that he's type of man, who is easily awed.

I must say I learn a lot from you people about the spirit of Americans - and the inside dillemas and struggles.
It must be pretty tough when some people are so against this war. I can't say I don't understand them, war is never something to look forward too. I hope they will feel better to know how wonderful and brave those soldiers are, and how they truely believe that this is the right thing to do.

The world is lucky to have a strong country like America that takes brave measures against a dangerous terrorist like Saddam Hussein. It was a very hard decisioun to make - going to war, and I understand the mixed feelings everyone has.

I have lived in a coutry that has struggled for its life - for as long as its existed, and Iraq was always one of the biggest threats. I mean, what can you do against a nuclear bomb? And what do you do when missiles arrive from far away and fall on your house?:paranoid2 It happened once, and if America hadn't taken action - I believe it would happen again, and not just in Israel.
There is nothing worst that a coward dictator that has no respect to human lives, but his own. He even uses his own people as human shields!!! this is a monster :evilalien .

But I can't help feeling that this war is scary and will take too many innocent lives. So what is the right thing to do? I guess nobody really knows.

Im glad to be here, listening to mature voices like yours. It seems like you people are going through really rough days. Stay strong and united, thats the only way for the good to win!

My heart goes out to those who are there, in the middle of the fire and arms. I hope the civilians got out alright, before it all started.

My love to all American and British, and Israeli soldiers. I have many friends that were drafted to the army on the last minute. If Bush would only let us, we would fight side by side with you! :soldier: :heart3:

You guys - stay strong, soon these soldiers will come back home to you!

KatieCat :cat:

p.s. - please forgive me if I have spelling mistakes... English isnt my first language... And thank you for your warm welcome!
:spin:

nunny thank you for your uplifting words during such a dark time. I am so glad that you not only have joined us, but that you also found your voice and are using it to post here. :)

Thank you KatieKat. I think we Americans need to hear that right now.I know i have been feeling kinda crummy about the whole thing. Its great to hear of some of the good that is happening.:angel:

katie....thank you for your words.....

I have goosebumps thinking of what is going on... my heart goes out to you and everyone.

Beautiful posts.......

They've released the names of two of the Marines killed - a corporal and a captain. I hope their families are OK.

Did you see the video, from Safwan? The reactions of those people, when the Saddam poster was torn down, were priceless! This should help prove that we don't have a beef with the Iraqi people.

I saw the Iraqi ambassador to the UN, on TV. Nothing that he said made sense. He was complaining abou the UN pulling out of Iraq and the oil-for-food program stopping. Food is being shipped to Iraq, despite the war.

The protesters are saying "Stop now". Are these people THAT stupid? You don't quit, while you're winning. We're expected to take Basra, tonight. The southern oil fields are secure, the Iraqi command is in disarray, soldiers are surrendering in droves and the Iraqi people getting humanitarian aid. We'd be crazy, not to keep the momentum going.

I find it ironic that people protesting a war become violent.

I saw the video of the soldier and the Iraqi ripping down the poster of Saddam. At first, the Iraqi had an expression disbelief of his own actions, then he really got into it.

Nunny,, glad you're here. I hope you and your family are safe and stay safe. By the way, your English is very good!

Here's something a friend of mine from Georgia sent me in an email. It's the text of a speech by Georgia's junior senator. I suppose it was in the paper, but I'm not sure which one.

Zell Miller knows how to boil things down to the basics. That's what Georgia's junior senator did Thursday when he explained why it's important that Saddam Hussein be defanged. But he's also a good storyteller. Here's the text of Mr. Miller's remarks, made on the Senate floor about the need to help President Bush deal with Iraq.

"Mr. President, I have signed on as an original co-sponsor of the Iraq resolution, and I'd like to tell you a story about why I think it is the right path to take: A few weeks ago, we were doing some work on my back porch back home, tearing out a section of old stacked rocks, when all of a sudden I uncovered a nest of copperhead snakes. Now, I'm not one to get alarmed at snakes. I know they perform some useful functions, like eating rats. And when I was a young lad, I kept snakes as pets.

I had an indigo snake, a bull snake, a corn snake and many others. I must have had a dozen king snakes at one time or another. They make great pets and you only had to feed them a mouse every 30 days. I read all the books by Raymond C. Ditmars, who was the foremost herpetologist of his day. That's an expert on snakes. For a while, I wanted to be a herpetologist, but the pull of being a big-league shortstop outran that childhood dream. I reminisce this way to explain that snakes don't scare me like they do some people. And I guess the reason is that I know the difference between those that are harmless and those that will kill you. In fact, I bet I may be the only senator in this body who can look at the last three inches of a snake's tail and tell you whether it's poisonous or not. I can also tell the sex of a snake, but that's another story.

A copperhead will kill you. It could kill one of my dogs. It could kill one of my grandchildren. It could kill any of my four great grandchildren. They play all the time where I found these killers. And you know, when I discovered these copperheads, I didn't call my wife, Shirley, and ask her advice, like I do on most things. I didn't yell for help from my neighbors or take it to the city council. I just took a hoe and knocked them in the head and killed them. Dead as a doorknob.

I guess you could call it a unilateral action. Or pre-emptive or even bellicose and reactive. I took their poisonous heads off because they were a threat to me. And they were a threat to my home and my family. They were a threat to all I hold dear.
And isn't that what this is all about?"

ok, im a little drunk now, but i found it funny that someone was hitting saddams face on that poster with a shoe. :D

Kellye, I'm not drunk, and I thought that was hilarious, too.

I would just like to thank you all for your posts. I have learned so much. When i go to work and talk about the war....I am a much smarter person from listening to all sides. I have learned more from all your posts than hours of listening to FOX or MSN News....You all rock!

hope the war is over vary soon.

Originally posted by Kiwideus
ok, im a little drunk now, but i found it funny that someone was hitting saddams face on that poster with a shoe. :D

In the Muslim world, that is a supreme insult. It represents putting someone under your feet. It is, also an insult to turn the bottoms of your feet toward someone.

According to Gen. Franks' briefing, this a.m., the operation is 24 hrs. ahead of schedule. Having a whole division (8,000) soldiers surrender made securing the southern oilfields a lot easier. One Marine said that he felt sorry for those guys "They looked like they were hungry".

One group of Iraqis tried to surrender, to a group of journalists, yesterday. I remember them doing that, in the last Gulf War. Of course, they know that Americans will feed them!

yeah i saw that about them being hungry - and i just saw that they were sent home - do they mean that they went home to Iraq or are they still there with the americans? im confused.

and what do you mean by ahead by 24 hours?

i just had a nap and i am a little behind.

The military had a plan, that laid out how long it would take to reach each objective. Since it has taken less time to achieve these objectives, they're running ahead of schedule.

The Iraqi envoy to the UN has accused Kofi Annan of being a "tool of the US and Zionist conspiracy". He's STILL trying to make this out to be a campaign against Islam, rather than a campaign to rid the world of a ruthless madman. He, also takes issue with the notion of the UN administering the oil-for-food program. Just WHO, in Iraq, is capable of doing that, right now?

In all of the video, from Baghdad, I see a large mosque, in the foreground and several times a day, we hear the call to prayer. If this WERE a campaign against Islam, THAT would make a dandy target.

Thank God those 4 US soldiers in the hummer are alive and only wounded - Wow...I bet that reporter feels bad about reporting that they were dead....not to mention the Pentagon reported it too....I have been feeling bad for the past 3 hours...Now I am relieved...Whew!

you mean to say that they mistakedly reported that 4 soldiers had died. jeez.

They sure did....On FoxNews they had one of the reporters from the Pentagon said...over and over, "I repeat, the 4 Soldiers are not dead...they are injured"


Can you believe that? They better re-think the "Reporting Plan", huh?

yeah they better, those poor families, thinking 'my son/daughter has been killed' and then finding out that they were still alive...man...

the media pisses me off. they are in such a hurry to scoop everyone that they don't give a $hit if they report inaccurate info. I hate the sensationalized, media circus spin they put on it. It's disrespectful and trivilizes the severity of what is going on. IMHO

i agree airprincess...

In a situation, like that, there is bound to be some confusion.

Reports that I have seen have said that some of Saddam's inner circle have made surrender overtures, via e-mail, through third-party countries and hand-carried messages. The rats appear to be deserting the sinking ship.

Another anti-war protest, here yesterday. Some "support the troops" people showed up, too. The anti-war bunch blocked off a major downtown thoroughfare and access to a Federal courthouse. The troop supporters stayed on the sidewalks and were all well-behaved. By their misbehavior, the anti-war bunch aren't winning many friends.

A round-the-clock, candlelight peace vigil is ongoing, at the Islamic Center. They are staying on their own property and praying. The others should take a page from this group's bok.

It was reported from one of the 700 "on board reporters" within moments of it happening and that he twisted his words, basically...HE FREAKED...

I guess they are going to HAVE to find a better way to confirm these things before the reporters latch on to it.......I just can't believe all of the stories the media posted on the topic inn the last 3 hours...Hell, I believed em'[ - Hope the families didn't have a heart attack...poor things!

>^,,^<
Kim

We were watching ABC, last night during a bombardment. That reporter sounded as if he was going to lose it, any minute. He was on the east bank of the Tigris and all of the strikes were on the west. When this is over, he's going to need a loooong vacation!

and probably some new underpants. ;)

Can't even imagine what's going through their minds when the witness certain events over there.......They are flirting with death, and all to get the "Full Story" IMO ....I guess that's not to harsh of an analogy, huh? I do appreciate them though....I can't believe what we are allowed to view on our TV's!

BTW - does Bagdad still have electricity?

>^,,^<
Kim

Yes. We're broadcasting, to the Iraqi people, on the radio. The coalition wants it clearly stated that the Iraqi people are not being targeted.

Some Western journalists have been killed. Four ITN people were killed near Basra. They were wandering about, on their own. Blundering around, in a war zone is just as dumb as playing "chicken" with a bulldozer.

Hi, I'm new to this forum. What I am really annoyed with is the "Hollywood " aspect of the media. It is kind of sickening to watch Matt Lauer wearing his shades in Kuwait. Are we supposed to take him seriously? Who's next Geraldo? They want us to take them seriously and feel like they are non biased. Are they going to Advertise upcoming segments of The Today Show with - The Morning Show Goes to Kuwait this Week!:cool:

Sue really IS my neighbor......... :D

oh that figures Kim! :D

Another reporter, an independent photographer, was killed by a suicide bomber while trying to enter northern Iraq. I have to say, while I appreciate getting the news, and the way they are reporting with the troops is amazing, I hope these journalists know that they are taking their lives in their own hands. These soldiers can't "protect" them then the firing starts.

Hi, Sue. Actually, Geraldo is reporting from Afghanistan, for FoxNews.

I guess the crooks had a field day, in Manhattan today - the cops were tied up, dealing with 125,000+ protesters. For people who are supposedly compassionate, they aren't very considerate of their fellow citizens.

At last count, 52 nations have signed on, with the coalition.

There is a "support the troops" rally at a local VFW post, tomorrow. I may put on my "Don't Tread on Me" T-shirt and go.

On the protester note: I saw one young woman getting arrested, in San Francisco. She stomped her widdle foot and cried. Considering how many cops are ex-military and Reserves, they're acting with admirable restraint.

Yeah but what up with Matt Lauer?

Originally posted by Kims Neighbor
Hi, I'm new to this forum. What I am really annoyed with is the "Hollywood " aspect of the media. It is kind of sickening to watch Matt Lauer wearing his shades in Kuwait. Are we supposed to take him seriously? Who's next Geraldo? They want us to take them seriously and feel like they are non biased. Are they going to Advertise upcoming segments of The Today Show with - The Morning Show Goes to Kuwait this Week!:cool:


I feel you and agree completely! Wonder why we're so desensitized to violence

:rolleyes:

He's in Kuwait waiting to open up saddam's tomb.:anon:

Please forgive me....but I had to go there.........
http://spearswardco.com/now.jpg

What ?????:confused:

I just want to say that I hate the term "shock and awe" they use it to death and throw it in as if it is some sort of hollywood block buster. We are over in a country that for the most part dispises us, and who has a very distorted view of what america is all about and we are encountering serious opposition and doing some serious damage to specific targets nothing shocking or awe inspiring about that.

I hear the actors and actresses are being encouraged to air their political views at the awards show tomorrow- which is enough for me not to watch it. There is enough hollywood on the news shows right now, I don't need any more mixes of politics and hollywood.

Top Five reasons not to watch the Grammys:

1. Flesh
2. Breasts
3. lack of clothes
4. liberalism
5. actors/actresses stating political views

You can count me out!:jester:





sorry, if I made anyone mad:goodbad:

Since I don't go to movies, I never watch anyway.

I'm sick about the attack on the 101st Airborne, at their base camp, in Kuwait. Turns out, one of their own men threw 3 grenades into a tent and injured 13 soldiers. In another era, he would be taken out and summarily SHOT! He's in custody, now. Personally, I think that he should be dropped, unarmed, into the middle of the Iraqi Republican Guard.

Its bad enough, that protesters, back home are raising a ruckus now, these soldiers have to worry about one of their own being a traitor and saboteur.

Originally posted by Katbe
I'm sick about the attack on the 101st Airborne, at their base camp, in Kuwait. Turns out, one of their own men threw 3 grenades into a tent and injured 13 soldiers.
That is absolutely horrible!!!!:onfire:

They say the soldier being detained was recently written up for insubordination. I imagine his fellow soldiers are in shock that one of their own did this horrible thing.

The Iraqis are showing footage of civilian casualties. It is entirely possible, that those people were injured by Iraqi antiaircraft shells and surface-to-air missiles, falling back to earth. They aren't hitting anything in the air and those things have to come down, somwhere, sometime.

I will be exercising my freedom by not tuning in to the oscars. They have a right to express themselves and I have the right not to watch.

ditto!

I asked the S/O (12 years in the army and now in the reserves) and he says that the incident with the insobordinate soldier is not uncommon, especially during wartime.

He wasn't surprised at all by the story when I told him. He said it's not shocking at all. He says they have a saying

'friendly fire is a motherf$%ker'

Gen. Bernard Trainor, USMC (ret.) explained about "fragging" in Vietnam. A LOT of officers and senior NCOs were killed by their own men.

This incident has to make those guys even jumpier, though. You have to be able to trust your comrades, in a combat situation.

I was shocked and appalled by the story, and surprised that the S/O wasn't. I didn't realize that it was a common thing.

Cindy, funny you bring that up, he used that same example when explaining it to me!

I didn't hear that story. How disturbing! I thought friendly fire was usually a mistake, I didn't realize how common it is.

As for the Oscars, I'll do what I always do. I tape it, and fast forward to the awards and musicians I want to see. I can usually get through it in less than an hour.:)

The Iraqis are claiming to have shot down a plane and have said that two people parachuted into Baghdad. They have people out on the riverbanks, setting fire to the brush, trying to smoke them out.

CENTCOM, however, says that all planes are accounted for.

One of the soldiers wounded, in that grenade attack has died. I don't know if the Uniform Code of Military Justice still includes the death penalty but this is a case that cries out for it!

I just heard a Royal Airforce plane was shot down by the US. Very sad.

Now they're reporting 10 U.S. soldiers unaccounted for in southern Iraq. Iraq claims it has POWs. I'm wondering what's going to happen when they reach Baghdad - looks like it will be very soon. So far no WMD - hopefully they won't be used to stop the invasion of Baghdad.

It makes me sick that these Hollywood types are going to take the Oscars and turn it into a public forum to air their political views. There is NO way that I am watching that.

I cannot concentrate on anything at work (we work on Sundays, as you probably know...). I keep switching back to the news websites...

I hope those missing soldiers are alright. I just pray they won't be in captive of the in Iraq. Those people are ruthless, and have no conciens. You saw what hapened to Daniel Pearl, which was sickening.

Oh, I wish it would all just end!!! :paranoid:

Be strong, and may your your fellow-American & British allies stay safe. :heart2:

I think Americans should be proud of the protesters really. Not that I agree with what they're saying, but I think it's proof of the strength of the American democracy. Letting people voice their opinion, even if it's unsupportive of the war effort, is very important IMO. Yes, it costs a lot to manage the protesters (police budget etc.) but it's a small price to pay to live in a democracy. Again IMHO.

Just heard on the news that the US announced that a pilot was shot down over Baghdad :(

They just said that Iraq has 200 POW's and they are going to show them sometime today. They also said that all RAF and other aircraft are safe and accounted for and that an amphibious vehicle transporting troops just got blown up by enemy fire.

MSNBC has just announced that it is quite possible that a Patriot missile did hit a British plane. The explanation is that the transponder, which would have identified it as British, could have been defective. The same broadcast states that only 10 Allied soldiers have been captured, and that no American plane or pilot is missing over Baghdad. However, the stories seem to change every few minutes.

As Anne has stated, Americans are allowed to state their objections to government action, as long as those demonstrations are peaceful. I pray that we are doing the right thing, and also for the servicemen, but history will be the ultimate judge, as always.

I think that the crew of that British Tornado got out all right. The friend-or-foe transponder may well have malfunctioned. Lord knows, we're all familiar with electronics malfunctions.

It makes me sick that these Hollywood types are going to take the Oscars and turn it into a public forum to air their political views. There is NO way that I am watching that.

I couldn't agree more…I will not be watching the Oscars.

IMO I think it is SO fake and hypocritical for CERTAIN celebrity protestors (Fauxtestors) to voice their NEW found political views about this war—I am referring to the celebrities who have showed ZERO interest in the past. Funny and sickening to watch them try to play their "New Roles"—drawing attention to themselves. Eww!

Wouldn't it be cool to see all protesting actors and actresses appear on a nationally televised, LIVE, unrehearsed political discussion forum? Maybe have Hannity and Combs moderate the show…Hmm? Huh? Hmmm?

Oh No..They just reported that the Iraqi's have 4 of our soldiers held captive...The showed them on Iraqi TV. One of the soldiers is a girl and she's not wearing her boots - they zoomed in on her feet to show they are damaged. I PRAY that they are not tortured. Now my stomach has flipped and my heart is on the floor.

They reported that some of our POW's were executed—shot in the head. I am in tears. The Geneva convention has been violated BIG time. I wish that we would go ahead and LEVEL Bagdad!!!!!!! :onfire: :onfire: :onfire: :onfire:

what's up with the whole iraqi search for a us soldier who parachuted into the river?? And then the pentagon says there's a plane missing, perhaps shot down over baghdad?? My heart is in my throat, for anyone who may actually be out there hiding from the iraqi's.. there were like a TON of people out there, probably ready to rip the us soldiers limb from limb.. Unforunately I am cableless (out in the country we can't actually GET cable) so I have to watch network, which just seems to play the same thing over and over again, in between weather and sports..

I think actors and actresses have a right to voice their opinions as does everyone else.. I don't like bill o'reilly so um I don't watch him, but I'm not gonna bash him for what he has a right to do.. For that matter I'm not too fond of the Bush, yet I do support our troops, and I'm against this war to a degree and under these particular circumstances, but can see how some people could be for it.. I also think our ability to protest our gov't is a show of our freedom. Those who want to stop the peaceful protests aren't really giving much thought to what the whole war is supposedly about (freedom..).. I can understand those that turn violent must be stopped tho..

hey if u don't like my opinion, sorry =) I don't mean to get anyone fired up, really differing political views don't really bother me too much and I'm really not a debater or a fighter. I just hope that as many people can get out as safe as possible..

And what about these 11 POWS?? I'm gonna cry, and I can't even imagine what the families are going thru.. Please let's all pray for these people..

Originally posted by annabelle33


I think actors and actresses have a right to voice their opinions as does everyone else..

So do I, but to me the Oscars is not the forum in which to do it. Would you like to be in the middle of a scene of ER, and have Noah Wyle turn to the camera and say, "Gee, I know I should be reciting a line right now, but I felt compelled to tell you my views on this war in Iraq."?

Those MAY be Americans. Saddam ordered exact replicas of American and British militery uniforms, with a plan to commit atrocities and blame them on the coalition. The people shown on Iraqi TV may well be Iraqis or Western human shields, dressed in American uniforms. The Iraqis are capable of anything, to make it appear that they have the upper hand.

They are also claiming that an Israeli missile has fallen in Baghdad, in order to inflame the Iraqi people.

Another complication has been thrown into the mix. The Turks may be using this war as an excuse to go after the oilfields, around Kirkuk and take out the Kurds, in that area. Our troops have been protecting those Kurds, since the first Gulf war. The Turks are concerned that the Kurds may set up their own state, in northern Iraq. The Turks are fighting Kurdish rebels, in their own country AND they'd love to have those northern Iraqi oilfields.

I think actors and actresses have a right to voice their opinions as does everyone else..

Of course they do....good thing they live in America and have the freedom to run their yaps, especially on television for all the world to see—you know, the same way we regular people do

:rolleyes:

Somehow I think it is an atrocity towards our troops for hollywood to parade their glitz and glamor while our brave men and women are eating sand and dodging bullets. There is just something so wrong with that in my head. And then on top of that to listen to them spew about how wrong we are to be there?

i've been trying to stay out of this thread, but i have to jump in and agree with maryanne. i love to watch the oscars because i love the clothes. i will likely never be there, so why not enjoy a bit of flash and admire theirs. i am torn on whether to watch it this year for the reason you state.

they DO have a right to voice their opinions. this is not the platform. i also believe, what makes their opinions more important just because they are famous? they impose a sense of self importance. i like to watch the pretty people, but don't care about their views as much as they want me to care -- how shallow, eh?

but my main concern is what i ahve been saying all along... disagree, state your views, etc, but when push comes to shove... support your troops and leaders because they really are doing the best they can to protect our interests. that goes for the stars, too. they have secure info we don't. if they want to be in politics, take off the versace and armani and put on a conservative suit and run for office. reagan did.

i too enjoy watching the fashion scene at the Oscars.


i was hoping they will defer it till later, with all the war controversies going on. i thought it might even be DANGEROUS for the attendees.

Hopefully, the protestors will not pose as a danger.

I think it would be really nice if the Oscars would dedicate the entire show to our troups. No protesting..No politics...Just dedicate the show to our Soldiers. That's not asking for too much, huh?:angel:

Like you, Jan, I have been trying to stay out of this thread, so I dont get accused all over again. You all have made good statements. I am probably not going to watch the oscars, but not for that reason - I cant sit still for 3 hours of yak yak yak and looking at who has the best clothes and who has the worst. BORING! I will find out who is best actor , etc tomorrow, not like im going to miss anything important. There are better shows to watch :D ;) And besides, I have a lot of cleaning up to do, its amazing how much clutter we have built up :shocked: I am trying to avoid watching the war on telly, it gets me upset and it gets me into tears, especially now they are using women and children as human shields.
While I do not agree with war, I am behind the troops 100%, after all they are doing their job. *sigh* but I just wish this is over soon.

"take off the Versace and run for office" LOL, thats going to be my thought for the day.

Originally posted by binkyhoo
"take off the Versace and run for office" LOL, thats going to be my thought for the day.

LOL Binky!

I cant take the credit, Auburn said it. funny stuff!

While I agree that these limousine liberals have a right to speak their piece, it ironic that they are bad-mouthing the very people who are defending that right. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

As for any of them running for office - how many of them are actually registered to vote?

I have a lot of respect for Clint Eastwood and Sonny Bono. When they saw that things weren't right, in their cities, they got off of their duffs and DID something about it. They challenged the good ol' boy network and made their cities better places, by standing up for ALL of the citizens.

Kellye,

I for one hope you do not stay out of this thread, because what you have to say is always worth reading IMO. I would not let one person sway you from saying whatever is on your heart. As Anne said, because we enjoy such a unique freedom we are allowed to say anything we wish and not have to worry about being beheaded or having our tongue cut out. I always have liked your posts and you, and will continue to do so regardless of what rabble rousers might say. :) I was teasing you earlier, and it was not a good thing to do and I apologize if it upset you.

Posted by katl8e
As for any of them running for office - how many of them are actually registered to vote?
LOL! That is a darn good question. Hmmm.

Also, certain celebrities will need to get their high school diplomas should they decide to run for office—that is a prerequisite, isn't it?
:anon:

By the way, has any noticed that when the war started it was called Operation Freedom Sheild (or something like that) now its called Operation Iraqi Freedom. Whats up with that?

i think Kim's idea is fabulous! :wink:


Cheers :beerpals:

Forgive me, but do you think Gt. Britain stopped all entertainment for six years while WWII was coming to a conclusion? If this war were going to be over in a few days, I would understand the objections to the Academy Awards. If it would be a good idea to put the Oscars on hold, shouldn't we also stop Survivor, Everybody Loves Raymond, and all other programs designed to entertain? Should the news be the only programming allowed? Martin Sheen has been an activist for years. Should The West Wing be put in the wings? I think it is a mistake to think this war will be over in a matter of days. This could continue for months, or even years.

I wonder how many wars you all remember. I remember several. I know that life did not stop. In fact in times of stress, history says that people flocked to the movies to watch what we would now consider "fluff." It eased the pain and the worry that their sons, brothers, sisters and spouses might not come home.

I remember that the young protestors to the Vietnamese conflict were considered to be unpatriotic. I thought so too, and I was in their age group. I didn't agree with many of the actions of the young people, but I agreed with their opinion on the war. But it took the mowing down of college students at Kent State to cause the American people to take a second look at that war, and ultimately decide it was wrong. I remember a young teenager on my street being shot and killed by a sniper. War is not glory, not glamour, not always the right choice. I am taking no joy in the thoughts of anyone being killed, American, British, or Iraqi. "War is Hell," as Sherman said, and the only war in the last sixty years that history agrees was just is WWII. I would not be so hasty to call those who disagree with you unpatriotic or publicity seekers.

We are powerful, and I don't think there's any doubt that we will eventually win this war, but it will cost the lives of many soldiers and citizens, including little children. And it has already cost us the respect of some of our friends around the world. I pray that we're right, as I'm sure every patriotic American does, but I am far from certain!

Tamara, there are actually two "operations" going on. Operation Iraqi Freedom is the war we are fighting to get rid of Saddam Hussein. Operation Freedom Shield is the homeland efforts to ensure that terrorists can't strike us here at home.

I am just sick at the thought of the Iraqis having any of our troops as POWs. Yes, we have thousands of their troops, but we also know that they are probably being treated better by us, in better conditions than they were by their own government. God only knows what they are doing to our men and women. And if there is a woman that they capture, words just escape me. We know what they do to their women. :(

As for the protesters and the Oscars, we do have the right to protest. That's fine, and I have no problem with the peaceful protesters. I can't understand protesting for peace and being violent. I can't understand not even knowing WHAT you are protesting for (and from the interviews of some of the protesters, they truly don't have a clue). Everyone here who has stated that they are against the war has given good arguments against the war, and at least know what's going on in the political systems around the world. Oscars, I'm not watching this year. Mary Anne and Jan put it so well, I can only concur with what they already said.

Kellye, it is good to have disagreement especially on big issues like this. It makes both sides of the issue stop and think, evaluate where they are coming from. I know a couple people's remarks were pretty cutting in the other war thread, but please don't think that we all feel that way. We don't, and most of us truly value your opinion.

Jeanie, what a great statement you made!
And I agree.

I havent felt like posting here lately because it really gets to me, seeing the shock and awe attack (I hate that name), the loss of lives.
Imagine how those soldiers feel. Imagine how stressed they are.
It is in my opinion that those soldiers are not fighting for freedom or whatever the cause is, but fighting to stay alive, and to make it home alive.
Thats what really gets me.
My poppa was in WW2, fighting for England, in the merchant navy. To this day, he wont talk about it. I do know that his best friend died saving his life. My heart goes out to the veterans of past wars, imagine how they are feeling seeing all this and this has got to bring back a lot of memories. :(

I am anti-violence.

Kiwideus posted:
It is in my opinion that those soldiers are not fighting for freedom or whatever the cause is, but fighting to stay alive, and to make it home alive.

wow.
:indiffere

I don't want to see our troops treated shabbily, when they get home. When Bill came home from his third tour, in Vietnam (1967), his father was commander of the local VFW post. Of course, he wanted Bill to join. The members there stated, "We don't want any G--D----d baby burners and murderers at this post." Bill's dad promptly resigned. To this day, Bill will not set foot in any veterans' organization.

Its bad enough to be castigated and spit upon, by lily-livered liberals but, to be treated like the scum of the earth, by fellow veterans is worse.

It is one thing to have regular television going, but to put on an extravanganza that costs millions to put together is just wrong in my opinion. To get together and party and drink and celebrate while so many are dying is not something I support or ever will.

On another note-
I was watching a piece of tape last night, and it was where american soldiers were blowing up enemy tanks. There was a dog near one of the tanks, and the americans launched their weapons, the tank exploded and the dog yelped and took off running. At least he could still run! Not only are people dying in this, but the animals are suffering as well. Before the war started I was getting emails from people in Iraq asking me if I knew of anyone who was taking in animals! There was only one vet that I knew of and he only had room to take in 26 animals.

Originally posted by Jeanie G.
Martin Sheen has been an activist for years. Should The West Wing be put in the wings?

In my area, The West Wing was pre-empted last week, and NBC aired 2 episodes of Law and Order instead.

Just saw on CNN's ticker that some Iraqis faked surrendering and then ambushed our troops. Don't know how credible it is, but that's pretty underhanded if they are doing that. Guess that's how they operate.

Hubby had bought a bunch of yellow ribbon, just in case. It's unfortunate we have to use it, he tied it on our balcony this morning after hearing of our POWs. It will stay up until all our troops come home.

The media just got chewed out for showing the video clip of the captured american soldiers. I wonder if it were my relative or loved one if I would like to see it or be left wondering? :(

Not to sound negative but Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan told reporters in Baghdad that coalition forces are being allowed to move north from Kuwait uncontested, but he said U.S. led forces will face certain defeat once they approach Baghdad.

Why does that give me the creeps?

because it sounds like a set up

What the Iraqis will do when we get to Baghdad scares the cr@p out of me, too. That's their last stand, and they know it. I have no doubt that they aren't smart enough or care enough about their own people to surrender. They will try to inflict as many casualties as possible, with whatever means they have. I think that's when we'll see those WMD come out. :(

I am a Democrat, the daughter of a man who spent twenty years in the military, fought in a world war and the sister of a navy veteran, who served in the Pacific during the last war. I am one of the few people who are willing to stand up for those who love this country, but are unsure about this recent decision to start a war. There are usually two sides in a discussion, and most of you are being quite respectful of each other, but I personally take exception to the insinuation that liberals are cowards or unpatriotic. Noone on the opposite side is calling conservatives warmongers. This is a respectful discussion among Americans and their friends. Noone should be afraid to post her beliefs.

There were draft dodgers from all political parties during the Vietnam War. They went to college if they could afford it, or left for Canada. That does not excuse the people who did not give the veterans the honor due them, but not all of those people were liberals. If you remember correctly, it was a Democrat who escalated that conflict, and a Republican who evacuated our troops. (Johnson, who added fighting men to the advisors already there, and Nixon with his "secret plan" to end the war, the withdrawal of our men.)

God bless our troops and keep them safe.

Originally posted by kimward34
I wish that we would go ahead and LEVEL Bagdad!!!!!!! :onfire: :onfire: :onfire: :onfire:


This statement really scares me. Kim, I hope this was stated out of emotional strain and anger of the moment. Otherwise, it is a sad day if one truly believes this. It's sad when citizens of one country only get in an emotional uproar when their soldiers get hit. Then, when it happens it's off with all their heads. It scares me when I read words like that. I'm not trying to pick on you, just trying to highlight this specific statement. This kind of statement always rears its head from someone sooner or later during the wars.

There are so many wars and so many innocent people getting hurt in current day and throughout history. It makes you wonder why we don't turn our emotional compassion towards the world's people rather than only when it directly concerns the country in which we live. It's horrible when it's us vs them and so many boundaries are drawn in the sand.

We would be in such a different place today if people stopped looking at border lines and looked at showing individual human compassion for individual lives.

I am saddened by all casualties and get very disturbed when all people of a certain citizenship are pointed out and targeted. After Sept. 11, it seemed your skin colour determined if you were an enemy or not. It's hearbreaking to know that racial acts like September 11 are happening all over again here in North America because of the current battle over in Iraq.

It just amazes me when the US or other countries go to war and we get tied into how many US or British soldiers are killed rather than how many lives has the world lost today. When death strikes, it doesn't matter where the person was born. Since there will be a brother, son, father, mother, or sister grieving the same as you would for your own.

Not meant to offend or anger, just another view. I usually stay out of here, but this statement really got me.

I recently wrote my father who is a veteran of a few wars and asked him his views about this.

he sent me the following:

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
--Dwight Eisenhower 1953 speech

This statement really scares me. Kim, I hope this was stated out of emotional strain and anger of the moment. Otherwise, it is a sad day if one truly believes this. It's sad when citizens of one country only get in an emotional uproar when their soldiers get hit. Then, when it happens it's off with all their heads. It scares me when I read words like that. I'm not trying to pick on you, just trying to highlight this specific statement. This kind of statement always rears its head from someone sooner or later during the wars.

Yeah...I admit it. I got caught up in another American privilege, Freedom of Expression…I made that remark in the heat of anger. Sorry to offend you.

I posted that remark when I found out our soldiers were assassinated by the Iraqi Animals—carefully recorded on film, then displayed on the floor like a prize pig. When they aired the footage on TV, I was pretty ticked. Here we are treating their POW's with decency..... and our men are slaughtered?

It still ticks me off....can't say I am ready to retract the remark yet.

Not to worry, though, it's out of character for me to throw or break objects in the heat of anger.

Sorry...

Just a thought here- if the media had been allowed in during WWII (I know this is hypothetical) and if they had filmed the entire horror there- do you think war would of been eradicated just from the sheer horror of it all?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kimward34
I wish that we would go ahead and LEVEL Bagdad!!!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

If you ask me, there is nothing wrong with this statement. Answer this one: why was/is it ok for innocentAmerican civilians to die in our country (for example, Sept 11th), yet its NOT ok for innocent people to die in other countries, such as Iraq????? :confused: I am sure there are some people out there who would agree that it would be fine to go level Bagdad .... It happend during WWII when we dropped the atomic bomb over in Japan.......

Sorry, but I felt I had to comment on that one .......

I think we should go ahead and level Bagdad also. You have a madman running the country (or one of a dozen body doubles), an army of men who don't really know how they believe (most are scared to have an opinion), and they are engaged in their own underhanded brand of warfare. Why does it matter if the UN sanctioned the war, when they can't even follow the Geneva Convention. Whether you feel that the US should be there or not, we are and they need to deal with us in a dignified and fair manner.Of course there is nothing dignified or fair about Saddam Huessin( or is that In-sane). Sorry just rambling.:fireblob:

It is never ok for innocents to die. But in war it is inevitable.

I get the feeling that some big-time, nasty stuff is waiting, for our troops, when they get to Baghdad. With exception of Nasirya, we've made too much progress, too easily.

As for that soldier, in Kuwait - he is a Black Muslim. He should not have been in that unit or deployed, in the first place. He had already been disciplined for insubordination, prior to deployment.

There are some very fine, loyal American Muslims, in the US armed forces but this guy should have raised red flags, months ago.

We have local young man, 24 years old, whose family escaped Iraq after the last war. He very proud to be a Marine and I, for one, am proud that he is one! He says that he's "paying back what he owes." Granted, he is sorry to see his home country in the midst of a war but he is doing something to make it a better place.

one of the commanders from the Pennsylvania camp was reporting about the incident Cindy and he was fighting back tears while trying to do so. I felt so sorry for him. And I agree with you, I think the hell that we have witnessed is just the beginning of what is waiting for them when they get to Baghdad. One of my clients just wrote me an email and he said:

"I cannot step away from the television, no matter how hard I try. I have turned the computer desk so that I can face the tv and as hard as it is to watch, it seems imperative to me to see it all. I wonder if secretly I am a ghoul, but I know deep down I am just immersed inside the horror of the lost."

I believe that Iraqi TV has announced that it was Saddam Hussein's plan to allow the British and Americans to enter the country rather easily, and fight them in Baghdad. They could be blowing smoke, but I'm sure this won't be easy. Perhaps they want to lull us into a false sense of security.

Saddam pulled the best of his troops, back to Baghdad and it was reported, before the war started, that he had issued them chem/bio weapons. But then, he doesn't have any of those - right?

Baghdad TV reports whatever it wants. How convenient that we rolled into the country so easily! If it was their plan at what cost? Civilians, buildings, palaces, military personnel.:confused2

Perhaps they want to lull us into a false sense of security.
Our military lulled? Ya think?

Since the Pentagon has access to a LOT more information, than we do I'm sure that they are prepared, for almost any contingency. There's no way to cover ALL of the base but I'm sure they're doing everything possible, to contain the situation.

I'm concerned that Saddam has one big, dirty nuke stashed away and will try to go out, in a blaze of glory and take as many people as he can with him. We know that he doesn't give a hoot, about his own.

But don't you think our technology would detetect a nasty bomb like that? Just wondering.

I have been moving, so I have just caught up reading this thread. I am very proud of all of us for staying so civil, and very much enjoyed the input from our new Israeli friend. Welcome, nunny, I hope you and yours continue to be safe.
I just spent the day with several dozen Marines about to be deployed to Kuwait. They are proud and anxious to serve. God bless'em. Some of "our guys" from Camp Lejuene are among the ones processing and caring for the captured and surrendered POWs. They are very weak, starving, and seem to see it more as being in the care of the USA, rather than being imprisoned. The big buzz was the captured American maintenance division. 4 have been executed, and they are not clear on exactly how many they actually captured. There was a woman among them, and she was still alive, but severely beaten and forced to walk barefooted. as much as I don't want to see anyone die, if she is lucky, they will kill her. The guys I spoke to seem to think they will torture her in front of the remaining men, hoping to get information. This is not a combat unit, that is how she got there.
I noticed that there was some discussion about the journalists over there with the troops. The ones they are referring to as "embedded" with a certain group, had to pass a rigorous physical test to be able to do that, because they were told by the military that they could not be bothered to protect them. I admire these folks greatly for puting themselves in harm's way so the rest of us can know what is happening, disturbing as it is.
It was so hard to be among those young men today, watching the news, and knowing these same kids that got proudly got their Marine Corps tattoos today will be the ones fighting next week. I sat in the back and cried like a baby after about 3 hours of it. I was glad to see the race come on. At least I didn't have to print up any meat tags. I don't think I could have done it.

Originally posted by kimward34
But don't you think our technology would detetect a nasty bomb like that? Just wondering.

Not necessarily. He's been hiding stuff, for 12 years.

krazykat thank you for what you just offered.

They just reported that Russian Intelligence was selling to the Iraq's some of the equipment that could be used to the detriment of the coalition troops. night vision goggles GPS jamming systems and anti-tank artillery shells :(

There is just so much information about so many grim topics it is hard to assimilate it all.

I did hear on the news tonight that Michael Moore got an Oscar and got up for his *speech* and started slamming Bush- and by golly the Hollywood crowd booed him!

It seems that Saddam is still alive. I have to say that i am dissapointed. I fear the worst is yet to come.

Some Marines were attacked, while taking a surrender. The Iraqis were under a white flag and turned on the Marines. Its probably good that I'm not a military commander - I'd issue a "shoot on sight" order.

Other Iraqis are operating without uniforms and driving non-military vehicles. Saddam has blown his nose on the Geneva convention.

It has been noted that the Defense Ministry, in Baghdad, is not being targeted. Senior defense ministers are negotiating surrender terms. In addition, CIA, Special Ops and Iraqi resistance are carrying out sabotage, in Baghdad.

I still believe that Saddam has something big waiting for us, when we get to Baghdad. We can only hope that our commanders are farsighted enough and have the intelligence, to be ready for it. This is not the time to get overconfident.

Has anyone heard about the fate of the crew of the apache helicopter? I saw on the news they have an intact one, but haven't heard about the crew aboard?

They say they found a plant in the middle of the desert and were it not for the fence around it they say it blended with the desert perfectly. It is booby trapped and they believe it to be a chemical weapons plant but so far cannot get inside.

I just got back .... I've missed out on some things.

I haven't heard anything new about the Apaches. Just that Sahhaf said the POWs would be treated according to the Geneva Conventions.... I sure hope so.

I wonder if Sahhaf said that before or after the Iraqi Soldiers danced around our aircraft with their automatic rifles? I bet they bust out laughing everytime the words "Geneva Convention" are said.

I thought we were supposed to blow up our "Downed" aircrafts?

What's the scoop on the 4 new explosions in Bagdad this morning? Were those Tomahawks?


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My tv has been glued to MSNBC for five days now, but I am not "up" on the morning news. I had a guest all morning. I did want to comment on a couple of posts. Last night, I watched the Academy Awards, as I said I would. I needed a break! (But today MSNBC is glued in place again.) One person gave a peace sign when going up for an award, a young man from Mexico said something about peace, Michael Moore did make his remarks, but the thousands in the audience whistled and otherwise made it known that this was the wrong time and place. At the end of the awards, Steve Martin made a remark which was, more or less, a dedication to our troops. There was decorum at the awards, and I'm glad to have had the break.

Kim, you asked if I thought we be could be lulled into a false sense of security. Can our troops be lulled? I think we were, but that we now know better. Up until yesterday, the official story said we were way ahead of schedule, and 72 hours would tell the tale. Since then, Iraqi tv has announced the plan to lure our troops to Baghdad. Our troops also believed that the civilians would consider us as liberators, and have discovered that they were capable of deceit. Our military is the best in the world, but it is not infallible.

About flattening Baghdad? We might kill Hussein, but that's questionable. We would certainly kill the women, children, elderly, animals, and many men. We would most certainly be considered by our former friends in the world as monstrous as the monster we're trying to oust.

I'm more concerned that Saddam will flatten Baghdad, himself. He has already flouted the Genenva Convention, by torturing and parading POWs and having his soldiers operate out of uniform. Why would he stop at killing his own people and blaming us?

Saddam just doesn't play by the same rules we do. He sees nothing wrong with ambushing the enemy under the guise of surrender or soldiers dressed as civilians. He has no problem with using civlians as human shields, in places where we would least suspect them, and then flouting the number of innocent people "we" killed. I have no doubt he is capable of anything.

Hubby just told me that the Academy Awards had the lowest ratings in the history of the show. I think the people have spoken, and I am glad they were listened to by the stars themselves. I'm glad they boo'ed Michael Moore, it wasn't the place for him to spout his radical views. Thank you for telling us how civilized the others were as well, Jeanie. I'm glad they showed some decorum.

Not only did the stars whistle and make low, mumbling sounds, they looked completely disgusted, but Moore tried to out yell the music and the audience. I don't think those who were there came to make statements. They have every right to express their opinions, of course, but I don't think they had any intentions of making the Academy Awards a political soap box.

I watched part of the Academy Awards. As usual I taped them, I don't have the patience to sit through all the hoopla. Michael Moore was completely out of line, and the audience did look shocked and upset.

Adrian Brody, who won Best Actor, made some very moving comments about the difficulty of wartime. Everyone stood and applauded, he also mentioned a good friend of his who is now serving in Kuwait. I think he truly wants peace, Michael Moore just wants to make a loud statement.

What I wonder is why when the news reports the coalitions soldiers who have died - the number is always 10? Do they send groups out in 10? I just have a bad feeling that more are dying than they are reporting about (on both sides) I am remembering the VietNam War and how they fudged the numbers and after it was over they got caught in saying the numbers were lower than they actually were.

Did anyone see the life story of Saddam on the History Channel last night? It was a fascinating look at the man and the monster.

Originally posted by binkyhoo
It seems that Saddam is still alive.
Oh no!!!!!!!! :bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling:

Those tapes, of Saddam, seem to have been pre-recorded (before the war). He doesn't mention anything about POWs and, in today's installment, he lauds several military comanders, by name - including the division commander who surrendered his 8000 troops, on FRIDAY. If this tape was current, would he be praising that commander? In addition, everyone these days is wearing uniforms. On the tapes, Saddam's son is seen in a suit.

In action today, Marines guarding a bridge came under fire, from Iraqi soldiers in civilian clothes, shooting from a HOSPITAL. Are there no depths, to the evil in this man?

Coalition troops are fully prepared to deal with chem/bio weapons, as they close in on Baghdad. As I see it, the best thing to do would be to just take out the Republican Guard troops, totally.

Michael Moore's comment's were totally inapproriate, not only in the setting that he was in but in any setting. I understand his right to free speech, but free speech and the rhetoric he was spewing are 2 different things. I am sure by now that everyone here knows that I am anti-war, in this situation, and probably in almost any situation that would cause a war, but there comes a point when people go to far. I encourage peaceful demonstrations, but violence at some of these rallies that has been happening is a detriment to the cause of peace. No matter how anti-war I am I will never be anti-American and absolutely never anti-soldier. Soldier are the glue that "police" peace making efforts. They are doing a fantastic job, a job that right now must be very terrifying. My prayers are with them and their families, as well as with the people of Iraq.

Wow Ady!!! that was a great post!

Originally posted by hissy
What I wonder is why when the news reports the coalitions soldiers who have died - the number is always 10? Do they send groups out in 10? I just have a bad feeling that more are dying than they are reporting about (on both sides) I am remembering the VietNam War and how they fudged the numbers and after it was over they got caught in saying the numbers were lower than they actually were.



Usually they don't reported until they have either be id'd and/or the next of kin have been notified. the latest count today, does not include the soldiers that have been seen on the POW tapes for exactly those reasons.

Ady-

I always like reading your posts because they are always well-thought out and not just thrown out there for reaction, but more cause and effect. You made an eloquent speech right there. :)

At the most recent count, there are 36 coalition soldiers killed.
British troops are having a hard time, at Basra because Saddam's fedayeen, an irregular paramilitary force, are firing on Iraqi civilians. The inhabitants of Basra are primarily Shi'ites, who have been persecuted, by Saddam. This action, by the irregulars, is preventing humanitarian aid from getting to Basra, also.

On a positive note, the Shi'ites are rising up, against the fedayeen. British troops have taken out a mortar, that was firing into residential areas, of Basra.

Intelligence has confirmed that Saddam was injured, in the initial strike. Electronic intercepts have picked that up. Unfortunately, he is able to move about Baghdad, through a system of tunnels. One of his close inner circle has been turned into a "friendly" asset and is passing along information, too.

Originally posted by hissy
Ady-

I always like reading your posts because they are always well-thought out and not just thrown out there for reaction, but more cause and effect. You made an eloquent speech right there. :)

Thanks Hissy. I never try to imflame anyone, but at times I just have to voice my opinion. I know, that as a nonAmerican, I can never fully understand the stress and anguish your nation is feeling, but I will always be proud to say that Americans are my personal friends.

It must just be me, but I don't look at people as different groups, nationalities, etc. I am proud this is truly a world-wide forum- but I link us all to one group only "Cat Lovers" :D

Hissy-what a nice thought!:)

This just in :(

U.S. intelligence indicates "major column" of Iraqi Republican Guard troops with 1,000 vehicles heading south from Baghdad toward U.S. forces near Najaf, sources tell CNN's Walter Rodgers, embedded with the 3rd Infantry Division.

I was just reading an embed report, from a reporter who's with the Marines. They were the ones ambushed by Iraqis waving a white flag. The commander's orders now are: "Kill 'em."

As for that Republican Guard column, hopefully they'll call in an airstrike and take them out, on the road.

According to early reports from former officers, the loss of life in city fighting is 20-30%. I hope the Republican Guard does come to meet them. There may be fewer casualties. I'm concerned that we need more backup. Our troops now would be outnumbered, although we have much better equipment.

They're dissecting the report that 14 civilians were killed, by an errant missile, in Baghdad. What the Iraqis AREN'T saying, is that the target was a missile battery, 300 YARDS away.

Overall, the Red Cross is reporting fewer civilian deaths and injuries, than the Iraqis are claiming. This doesn't include the civilians killed by the Iraqi irregulars, in Basra. The British didn't start shelling the city center until the Iraqis began firing mortars into it. Taking out that mortar battery probably saved more lives, than it took.

There is a report, this morning, that British citizen has been captured, in Basra. He was fighting FOR the Iraqis, AGAINST British forces. Presently, he is being held, as a POW.

Question for our British members: does this constitute treason, under British law?

This just arrived in email

It's the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the
press.

It's the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.

It's the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to
demonstrate.

It's the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and
whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the
flag.

-- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

Oh, Hissy, I LIKE that. Thanks.

As of the last time I could bear to listen to the news, 26 Americans had been killed, 12 of them were "our guys" from Camp LeJuene. I just couldn't bring myself to see if i knew any of them.
I was listening to a call in radio show yesterday, and the subject was the female soldier that is MIA, Jessica Lynch, I believe. One of the callers was a female former Marine Corp medic. I thought what she had to say ws very insightful, and very correct. She said that this woman would not want to be a novelty as the first woman MIA, or God forbid, KIA. She is a soldier, and would wish to be thought of as such. She thought it was somewhat disrespectful of the media to be showing her photo as a civilian, as a pretty, young, American teenager, when she is a highly trained member of the American Armed Forces. I had not thought of it that way, but I think she is right. Any opinions, or thoughts on this?

In the military, people cease to be "men" or "women" - they are soldiers and as such have a job to do. Despite the gains made, over the past 30 years, there is still a mind-set, that women need to be protected. I resent that, as I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself.

Women have proven themselves, in a number of areas. Most of us may not have the upper-body strength, to do a lot of heavy lifting but, where coordination, logic and rational thinking are required, women shine.

As for injuries and the possiblity of torture and/or sexual assault - men are subjested to these, too. Women, in general, are able to deal with pain and hardship, as well as, if not better than men.

Geraldo Rivera has made an @$$ of himself, again. He took it upon himself, to tag along with th 101st Airborne and broadcast their position and their troop movements. He had been removed from the theater and escorted back to Kuwait.

This is one of the most irresponsible pieces of "journalism", that I've ever heard of. That jerk knowingly put our soldiers' lives in jeopardy.

I don't know why news organizations continue to hire him, since he has had zero credibility, for years.

The reporters, embedded with the troops, have done an excellent job of reporting within the parameters set by military security and are to be commended. Personally, I would have let Geraldo find his own way, back to Kuwait, without a military escort.

They made a pretty horrible discovery this weekend. They found parts of bloody US uniforms of some of the POWs with the nametags and flags ripped off. They also found pieces of uniform still attached to batteries. That's some pretty clear evidence that they are in violation of the Geneva Convention. Bless those soldiers who are POWs, and give them the strength to overcome these things we can't even imagine.

I think that the whole thing with the picture of the female soldier depends on the situation. If they were showing the pictures of men as civilians, it's fine. Soldiers are still people; they don't just turn into killing machines when they get sent over-seas, and sometimes it's good to be reminded of that. Those are people's friends, parents, children, etc. over there. If that was the case, I don't think it was disrespectful.

On the other hand, if they were showing pictures of men in uniform while showing pictures of women as civilians, then it's inappropriate. She is equal to the man, and if they are showing the men as brave, uniformed soldiers, it is down-playing her achievements to show her a a civilian.

Geraldo Rivera used to be an investigative reporter, and should have known better--despite the fact that his career has gone downhill for years. The real shock is that Peter Arnett was also fired (by NBC, MSNBC, and National Geographic Explorer) for giving an interview to the Iraqi news people. He is a Pulitzer Prize winner, as a result of his reporting for CNN in the Gulf War. He said the U.S. underestimated the Iraqi's determination, and had to change their plans. It was inappropriate to comment at all. It's true that we have to change our plans, but it wasn't the Pentagon's mistake; it was Rumsfeld who would not listen to the military experts, and opted for a smaller force. I'm afraid that's going to cost us a lot of lives!

Peter Arnett was fired from CNN, in 1998, for airing a phony story. It was entitled "Tailwind" and claimed that US forces used poisoned gas on Laotian civilians. He and CNN went ahead with the story, without properly checking sources.

He should not have expressed his personal views, on Iraqi TV. A journalist is supposed to report the facts. There is already too much bias, in the media.

My thoughts are with that reporter and her camera man that were snatched out of their hotel room 6 days ago by Iraqi police. They said her address book held phone numbers of some important white house personnel, and they fear she was snatched to become a bargaining chip.

This morning on one of the news show, they had a soldier who had been in a helicoptor assault read his journel of the hellstorm that he went through. I was in tears by the time he finished reading his harrowing account. God bless all of the soldiers overseas, men and women...

We've been getting regular updates, on a local Marine, wounded last week. He took shrapnel, to the head and it didn't look as though he would make it. However, he is concious and coherent and should be home, soon. What is unusual is that he and his father are in the same unit.

Good wishes, for the Denogean family!

The Associated Press is reporting that a recon mission was successful and we got back one of our Marine POWs! There's at least one rescued, perhaps more than one.

On a darker side, hubby just called to tell me it looks like the ground offensive is really starting now. All the embedded reporters are saying they are moving and attacking. Bless our troops, keep them safe.

I just heard they rescued one of the females - a 19 year old from Virginia, if I remember correctly. The news didn't have any other information - what condition she's in, etc. - but thank God they got her!!

Prayers to the rest of the POWs, and to all the troops.

Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch was rescued, by coalition forces. There are still five members of her unit missing in action.

The Pentagon didn't release details of the operation or her condition but she is alive.

I just saw on CNN that she is in an Allied hospital, they told her family she is in "good condition" and that she will call them tonight. :D

Just saw an update on her. She was being held in an Iraqi hospital which was also being used by the Iraqi military. She does have multiple gunshot wounds, but it doesn't appear to be life-threatening. She is in the care of American surgeons and doctors. now.

The latest, on MSNBC's Website, is that she has two broken legs and a broken arm. An Iraqi civilian slipped a note, to US forces, telling where she was being held and even, the room number.

The four missing journalists are safe, in Jordan, too. They were being held in an Iraqi prison but, they don't know why.

I hope they will manage to rescue all soldiers like that. I was moved to tears when I heard about her!!! Our local news said that she was shot a few times, but she is no longer in danger. She is nice and safe.

Is this girl from the 507 maintenance unit? Does anyone know what ever happened to those other POW's? We all saw their video, and it was breaking our hearts. :sniffle:

God, I hope this story will have a happy ending. I can't imagine otherwise. :(

Just heard on the radio that they also found 11 bodies in the hospital, some of them may be Americans. They just don't know yet.

It was so cool on CNN last night they talked with Jessica Lynch's kindergarten teacher. She's from a small town, about 900 people, and she said the whole town is celebrating. Honking horns, sirens going off, even shooting off fireworks. What a wonderful night that must have been in Elizabeth, WV!

I am going to rant just a little bit on the CNN coverage, though. Regarding the 4 journalists who were unexpectedly escourted to Jordan, they only talked about the three American journalists. Does that other man not count? Is it somehow less important that he was released because he is not American? I was just ashamed that they were reporting it in that way. :(

Her parents were just on MSNBC and, needless to say, they are thrilled, that she's alive. She's on her way to Ramstein AFB, in Germany.

Today has been interesting to say the least. We are now 15-20 miles outside of Baghdad, meeting very little resistance. Most of the Iraqis they come across are surrendering on sight.

Iraq has now booted Al Jazeera news out. That says something right there. When they boot out the Arab network who is obviously more on their side, they must be panicked. At the same time that they did that, the Information Minister put out a statement saying they are winning the war. Hmmm, you have maybe 15 of our soliers captive, and less than 100 have been killed (many in accidents, not in combat. We have 8000+ POWs and have killed many hundred in combat. Now, who's winning again?

We have decimated TWO divisions, of the Republican Guard and are within 20 miles of Baghdad. We did it without using civilians, as human shields or shooting from mosques and hospitals, too.:soldier:

I don't know what the Iraqi government is smoking but, it must be some potent stuff. They're claiming that coalition forces are nowhere near Baghdad and the Republican Guard has had only 17 killed.

CENTCOM and MSNBC show that Marines have taken Saddam International Airport and one of the palaces, four miles, from Baghdad.

They are doing some seriously weird stuff: expelling Al-Jazeera was a stupid move, on their part. That was their main propaganda mouthpiece, since Iraqi TV can't broadcast, outside of Baghdad.

It has been reported that Fox is lobbying, to get Geraldo Rivera, back into Iraq. After his irresponsible reporting, he's liable to get fragged, if he goes back.

That Information Minister is going to have to share what he's been smoking with the rest of the population for them to believe him. "The Americans are not in Baghdad. Ignore the tanks rolling past your homes, they aren't really here. We are in complete control." :rolleyes: :laughing2

Today, it was: "We have run them out of the airport and, when they entered Baghdad, we cut their heads off."

I am so sorry, for the family of Lori Piestewa. She was from Tuba City, on the Hopi reservation. Her body has been positively ID'd. Pfc. Piestewa was Jesica Lynch's roommate. Fifty-two members of the Hopi tribe are in the service, 48 of them, in Iraq. This is a large number, for such a small tribe.

Just saw this on my local (KYW1060) news website. If the UN doesn't get behind us now, they never will. So much for there not being any "smoking guns"...

<<Report: Deadly Nerve Agent Sickens U.S. Troops in Iraq

The Knight-Ridder News Agency is reporting the discovery of a deadly nerve agent in Iraq.

U.S. officials have yet to confirm the report, but the K-R news agency says American troops around 60 miles south of Baghdad have uncovered traces of Sarin. Initial tests, a foreign editor says, came back positive, follow-up tests came back negative, and then more sophisticated tests also confirmed the presence of Sarin.

The news reports also say a number of U.S. troops became ill. Their symptoms included vomiting, dizziness, and skin blotches - all associated with exposure to Sarin.

Traces of the compound are suspected in two sites: an agricultural warehouse and a military compound.

This would be the first confirmation of chemical weapons in Iraq.>>

US troops have found 11 barrels, of sarin, tabun and lewisite (a blistering agent), buried near Karbala.

The Iraqi information minister held a press conference, on the roof of the Palestine Hotel. He said that there are NO US tanks, in the streets of Baghdad - it is all an illusion. I didn't know that David Copperfield was in Iraq!;) WHO does this idiot think that he's fooling?

An Iraqi exile force has been airlifted in, to form the basis of a new army and government. It looks as though this operation was planned out, in a lot more detail, than anyone knew about.

They said they also found white powder filled grenades in a school of all places.

I am still reeling over the loss of one of my favorite tv commentators David Bloom- I loved his tenacity in reporting and will miss seeing him on NBC now.

Bill was really hit hard, by David Bloom's death. He really liked his reporting. The other MSNBC reporters emm to be pretty shook up, too.

BTW- Geraldo Rivera seems to have disappeared. Could we be so lucky?

I heard he got hired by a tabloid newspaper in London...don't know if this true or not?

No, that was Peter Arnett. The Sun hired him. Maybe they want naked pictures of Saddam.

:emba: :D

I have an opinion. I think that top commander of saddams army that we see on the news every so often would make a good clown. He just looks like he would look good in clown makeup. Maybe its his big round nose. I dont know but i keep picturing him as a clown.:afrorainb

Originally posted by binkyhoo
I have an opinion. I think that top commander of saddams army that we see on the news every so often would make a good clown. He just looks like he would look good in clown makeup. Maybe its his big round nose. I dont know but i keep picturing him as a clown.:afrorainb

Well, he IS going to need a new job, pretty soon.

Its too bad he is a mass murderer, he can act in front of crowds real good.

Now children, repeat after me:

Those are NOT American tanks, in th streets.

Those are NOT American soldiers, sitting on Fearless Leader's expensive upholstery, taking their ease in his garden and $#!++ing in his toilets!

:lol2: We are naughty!:disturb:

moving this to our brand spanking new forum for serious discussions!

John McCain says that this guy has a future, on "Saturday Night Live".

His latest pronouncement is: "The American soldiers are committing suicide."

The press is saying that today is the "Fall of Baghdad". When the tanks moved in today there was not any resistance. Even the Arab news channels are asking Where is this great Army that Saddam said would meet them in Baghdad. The Arab news reporter's answer was "It must have been a phantom." The people are welcoming the coalition forces into Baghdad, the people tried to take down that huge statue of Saddam in the main square but couldn't do it themselves. The Marines helped, nice boys that they are. ;) After the statue fell the crowd jumped on it and dismantled it. The only resistance they encountered was from the Oil Ministry buildings. Even the Information Ministry is abandoned, and no one knows where the guy who said we aren't really there is.

Hopefully it will ALL be over soon! It's great that Baghdad has been liberated - now the rest of the country will be soon (I'm thinking of Tikrit and Mosul). Don't you think the Iraqi Information Minister belongs in Hollywood? I've half been expecting him to announce, "The Americans and British have been soundly defeated!" while the Marines surround him on the street! He was the one who watched "Wag the Dog" too carefully. Hurrah for the coalition forces! Let's hope this means a whole new life for the Iraqis.

I am rejoicing for the citizens of Iraq who are full of joy right now. I also agree that the "Press Secretary", or whoever that man was- was laughable. There was no doubt that the overwhelming power of the US would defeat such a small country, although we are fortunate that we did not lose more of our troops. Of course, even the vice-president said the struggle is far from over. It took years to put Europe back together after WWII, and it will take a long time to help the Iraqis establish a government and honest and efficient public services, such as a police force. This is all to be expected.

However, we did not make a "pre-emptive strike" to free the Iraqi people. That was never our stated purpose. That was not the argument we gave the United Nations. Even though I am personally happy to see the possiblility of a free and democratic Iraq, this was not our goal. There are victimized peoples all over the world. Now the VP is concerned that other countries will make unauthorized pre-emptive strikes. Well, we have set the precedent, unless we and the rest of the world accept double-speak. As much as I love my country and know in my heart that there are not many governments that can compare to ours, we are speaking out of both sides of our mouths. We will be very fortunate if the countries of the UN and the citizens of the US and the UK can forget that a free Iraq was not our major concern.

I loved watching that statue come down and the Iraqis dragging the head, through the streets.

Can't say as though I blame the looters. After all of those years of deprivations, to see that the regime had stockpiled all of that food, meant for the Iraqi people, its understandable.

The Kurds were having quite a party, this morning, too. They were dancing in the streets, waving Kurdish and American flags and having themselves a high old time!

They say that Jessica Lynch will be coming home (at least to Walter Reed), this weekend. If she doesn't make the promotion list AND get at least a Bronze Star, somebody at the Pentagon needs to be busted back to recruit!

If the stories about her fighting, until she ran out of ammo are true, a medal with a "V" (valor) is in order. The Purple Heart is a given and she's definitely got the combat points, to get promoted.

Jeanie G., how right you are! I had a really horrible experience today. One of my students, a really sweet 17-year-old, is Lebanese, and told me a few weeks ago that she had Lebanese relatives in Baghdad. She wasn't in school yesterday, but came in today to take a test. After the test, she totally broke down and cried, in part because people were talking about the fall of Baghdad (my fault - I asked what their reaction was, not knowing that she had a tragedy in the family). Tuesday evening her family got word that her mother's sister, brother-in-law, and five nieces and nephews had been killed when their home was hit by a bomb. R.'s little five-year-old cousin was the only one to survive. Her mother had a nervous breakdown and is in the hospital. These people are/were Palestinian refugees who left Lebanon because of the civil war, and went wherever they could in order to try to ensure their kids a safer life. R.'s family probably won't be able to take the little boy in, provided that he makes it, because of Germany's strict immigration laws. Another student, whose family is from Bosnia, has been trying to bring her orphaned cousins to Germany for two years. Their father was killed in the war there, and their mother, her father's only sister, died of an embolism two years ago. The German authorities say they should be adopted by Bosniacs. What a horrible world we live in!

That poor girl! I will keep her family in my prayers.

I am a patriot, but as I said before this war started, war is not glory; war is hell, to quote Patton. I hope those who wanted to see Baghdad flattened read your post, jcat. We are sending our children, and they are mostly only boys and girls, not men and women, to kill and be killed. Hussein is a monster, no doubt, but our CHILDREN are dying and innocent civilians are dying. We have changed stories. That concerns me. We have struck the first blow; that is not an American tradition. I'm sure our intent is good, but let's tell it like it is.

And in the future, let's use the UN for what it was intended, to solve world problems. We were among the strongest supporters. They asked for 18 more days, I believe, and we said no. So, must the UN side with us to be right? I don't know the answer to that. We would have to have been able to read Hussein's mind to know if a first strike on his part was imminent. We didn't have enough evidence to convince the rest of the world. The UN is not perfect, but it is our best chance for peace in this world.

I thank God we have not lost more of our troops, but every life lost lessens me. God bless the innocents on both sides. I certainly hope, now that we have changed this pre-emptive strike to a liberation of the Iraqi people, that we follow through- with as little loss of life as possible. It took years to stabilize Europe. It will cost many more lives, much money, and many years to stabilize Iraq. God help us all, and give a special blessing to your student and her family, jcat.

Thank you - I'll let her know that others are thinking of her and her family's pain, and praying for them. That's so right about the children - we're forcing 18 and 19-year-olds to carry a very heavy burden, and also teaching them to ignore the opinion of the international community.

Jeanie,

You keep saying that we changed our minds in the middle of the war. You obviously did not see President Bush on television before the war began when he outlined what our objectives were. One of the top priorities was the liberation of Iraq. Hence the "Operation: Iraqie Freedom".

My television has been on MSNBC almost non-stop since Colin Powell began speaking to the UN. I am not uninformed. His argument was that we that Hussein was hiding nuclear weapons and biological weapons which he intended to use. He did not suggest the liberation of the Iraqi people in any of the broadcasts I watched. I heard his evidence of these weapons. It's possible he was right, but the U. N. wanted an extra 18 days, I believe, and we did not accept that proposal. Yet, we are members of this organization. When Mr. Bush called the war Operation Iraqi Freedom, I was shocked.

There are cruel dictators all over the world. I would like to see all oppressed people freed from dictatorships, but it's not feasible for us to do this unilaterally. Nevertheless, I am happy that the freedom of the Iraqis is a byproduct of this pre-emptive strike, which is what this war was supposed to be. We couldn't prove the existence of the weapons or Hussein's intent to the satisfaction of the organization we strongly support. Our intent is good, I believe, but we HAVE changed our tune. If we were mistaken, we can now say the liberation of Iraq was our primary purpose. Did you see Colin Powell's address to the U.N.?

These are the lead paragraphs of Colin Powell's address to the U. N. in the Washington Post:


By Colum Lynch
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 5, 2003; 3:30 PM


UNITED NATIONS, Feb. 5--U.S. Secretary of State Colin L. Powell presented the U.N. Security Council with the United States most detailed case to date of Iraq's efforts to secretly develop chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and its attempts to thwart U.N. inspectors' disarmament of Iraq.

Drawing on recently declassified satellite imagery and intercepted radio and telephone conversations between Iraqi officials seeking to hide nerve agents and other banned weapons, Powell told the packed chamber that Iraq has squandered its last opportunity to disarm peacefully and that the council was approaching the day when it will have fulfill its obligation to take action against Iraq. Powell said that an "accumulation of facts and disturbing patterns of behavior" constitutes proof that Iraqi is in violation of its disarmament obligation.

"This is part of a policy of evasion and deception that goes back 12 years, a policy set at the highest levels for the Iraqi regime," Powell said. "My colleagues, we have an obligation to our citizens, we have an obligation to this body to see that our resolutions are complied with. We must not shrink from whatever is ahead of us."
___________________________________________________
Here is a link to the story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A29034-2003Feb5&notFound=true

Jeanie is right that we have changed our tune, and it changed when we decided to go in. When talking to the UN WMD were the only topic, nothing about freeing an oppressed people. The Freedom part came in when we announced we were taking Saddam down.

The UN may have wanted 18 more days, but the French made it quite clear that they would veto ANY military action for any reason. Their reasons are quite clear now. Some of the weapons stashes that were found are recent weapons from the French. France, Germany and Russia (the most opposed to any military action) are the countries who benefitted most from the oil-for-food program. Much of their oil comes from Iraq. We only get 2-3% from Iraq, that wasn't our motive. The UN voted unanimously that something must be done with Saddam Hussein and his weapons, then they couldn't decide what to do.

Got this breaking news from hubby: U.S. troops on Thursday said they may have found evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq -- what is possibly a stash of weapons-grade plutonium at an Iraqi nuclear facility and an air-conditioned truck that may be a mobile bioweapons lab.

Of course, this is unconfirmed right now, they need to test it all. It's pretty damning all the same.


And a quote to end my novel here. ;)

"The only way for evil men to exist is for good men to do nothing."

Quote from Heidi's post:
. Some of the weapons stashes that were found are recent weapons from the French. France, Germany and Russia (the most opposed to any military action) are the countries who benefitted most from the oil-for-food program. Much of their oil comes from Iraq. We only get 2-3% from Iraq, that wasn't our motive. The UN voted unanimously that something must be done with Saddam Hussein and his weapons, then they couldn't decide what to do.
_____________________________________________

Isn't it sad that we cannot trust the word of our supposed friends in this world, and that the motives for their actions-and our own, at times, are less pure than we would like to believe? I remember how adamantly I argued with my father that our motives were exactly as represented, and white and pure as the driven snow! I am not disillusioned with my country, but I am not as naive as I used to be. (In fact, if Daddy was still alive, we'd still be fighting!) We, all of us, tend to cover our respective butts.

MSNBC posted a chart, the other night, detailing weapons sales, to Saddam 1973-2001, by country.

The top three were Russia/Soviet Union (57%), France and China. The US accounted for 1% of the total and that was during the years that we were backing Iraq against Iran.

The nuclear reactor, bombed by Israel was sold by France. WHY would the third-largest oil producer, in the world, need a nuclear "power" plant?