Hi!

My boyfriend told me about a new practice that his vet friend told him about. You take a binder clip and put it on the scruff or the skin on the back of their neck, and the cat goes limp and calm for you to do any grooming necessary. Is this cruel in any way, or simply like a mother cat would hold its baby?

I suggest you put a binder clip on some loose skin on yourself (like under your arms) and see how much pain it causes.:onfire:

I'd question your bf's vet friend - I certainly would think twice before I'd take my cats/dogs to him to treat. That's cruel in my book - no way would I ever do that - even if the friend was joking.

Not true - just painful to the cat.

Sounds down right cruel to me.
I think this "Vet" friend must have graduated at the bottom of his class.
If it's that hard for the owner to groom a cat I'd suggest taking it to a professional groomer rather than putting a binder clip on the back of it's neck to make it go limp.

In the first place, comparing the pain a cat feels with the pain you feel isn't a valid comparison. Humans' pain tolerance is a whole lot lower than cats' and the neck scruff is well-padded with fat and fur, unlike human skin. The scruffing response is short-lived in an adult cat, so if it really hurt, you'd get a pain response in short order (and the whole objective of the clipping would be nullified.)

Although I haven't ever tried it, I have heard of it done, and recommended by reputable cat people, such as shelter workers and vet techs. So I don't think this is some off-the-wall hair-brained idea this vet came up with. Although actually a clothes-pin was mentioned; I'm not sure what you mean by a "binder clip." Yes, there are other ways to control a cat, but summarily dismissing this as painful and cruel isn't justified, IMO.

Here's an article that recommends doing it to keep a cat relaxed while giving sub-Q fluids: http://www.felinecrf.org/giving_sub-qs_giving_set.htm#clothes_peg_trick (and shows the proper way to do it.) :)

ETA -- Ahhhhhh......BINDER clips.....you mean those metal clips on the top edge of binders that hold papers on the binder, right? OK.....that's a different story. Those things are metal and some of them even have TEETH. No........that would be excessive. Stick with clothespins. ;)

As a vet tech I have heard of the same thing-but not with binder clips, I think that they pinch too hard. We use towel clamps that are used in human hospitals for surgeries-they have no sharp edges and work great!! I have had them fail on a few of my kitties, but then again some of mine can be down right uncontrollable if they want to be. So your bf vet is not totally crazy-I would just be leary of a binder clip unless it is well padded. Our clamps are a soft plastic as opposed to metal-I would question the metal. When you think about it-the mom kitties teeth have to be sharper than anything we could find to use anyway-that is why that area is not really as sensitive as we make it out to be.

I would be wary of using any of these items because they are not specifically designed for scruffing a kitty. A clothes pin is for clothes, and so on.

I think that is why so many people are upset on this thread. There are so many different types of clothes pins, binder clips, and other clipping devices, someone somewhere is sure to get the wrong idea and use the type of binder clip that has a claw on it that someone posted about earlier.

Doesn't it seem archaic that animals have to endure stuff like this instead of products being developed for them that fit the need? This seems like a home spun remedy that is marginal. I'm sure a lot of people might disagree and I know I am being conservative, but for a reputable endorsement I would ask a veterinary college like Cornell or Tufts. And even then if they endorse it, I am guessing they would advise that people only use it with appropriate training.

I think Barb makes a couple of very good points about the potential for incorrect use and about clips not designed for cats' scruff. I wonder why some company hasn't made something specifically for cats? It seems they'd be able to sell a lot of them to vets.

Ok Goldenkitty don't get upset with me. I am not doing this to my cats, I was just asking if it was normal because it did seem like it would be a little mean. I feel like you were lashing out at me, but perhaps I just misread you.

As for everyone else who offered suggestions, I appreciate it. I'll just stick with trying to cut a few claws at a time while they're laying down and sleepy.

I'm not sure either way on this topic.. It seems cruel on one hand, but perfectly fine on the other hand.. The reason I say this is because like you say the mother grabs kitten with this loose hair.. A binder clip though holds a bit tight,, I would think a clothes pin or something loose.

If you ever grabbed your cat in that area, they don't even seem to know your doing it..

Scruffing is helpful when you do it with your hand. I agree that a binder clip could hold too tightly... maybe one of those plastic clips they use to close a potato chip bag (so long as it has no teeth) would be better. But it's going to be tricky to find a clip that is as flexible as the hand; either there'd be too much pressure or too little, or it would slip off.

OK I put the binder clip on my skin and it hurt! I even tried a few different places. I would never do this or allow anyone to do this to my cat. BTW I have high pain tolerance. I do not believe a cat's pain tolerance is so high it would not feel any pain from that.

OK I put the binder clip on my skin and it hurt!.
Try it again wearing a heavy sweater or sweatshirt to simulate a thick layer of cat fur between the clip and the skin. :rolleyes:

Someone mentioned those clips that are used to hold potato chip bags. It seems like those would be a lot better than a clothespin or other sort of clip if you were going to use something on a cat's scruff... They are larger (larger surface area) so less likely to dig into the cat's skin, and they do not hold tightly enough to hurt. As long as it is not the kind with teeth...
This is what I mean:
http://www.promotewiz.com/images/bagclip.jpg

I've never scruffed a cat for grooming, but it's the most common way to groom ferrets, and restrain them for other procedures. I don't know if cats' scruffs are as tough as ferrets but if they are then this sort of thing should not hurt them at all. Ferrets actually drag each other around by the scruff.

I was googling for some info on how much pain a cat might feel if its scruff was clipped and I came across this really interesting article on ways to restrain a cat (with pictures) --
http://www.doctordog.com/catbook/cathand.html
It's so interesting I'll forgive them for calling their site "Dr. Dog" :lol3:

PS - this article says clipping doesn't cause pain (though it doesn't say what kind of clips) --
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/ANZCCART/publications/FS_Cat8.pdf

this article says it could cause pain if not done right, or if the cat doesn't have enough scruff --
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index.php?qid=20061120150143AAhRYqu
(note the bit about the scruff should pull away from the neck)

That site is pretty interesting.

I sure wish we had cat muzzles when I was a groomer. I think it would have made everyone feel better! Some of my cats are fine with being scruffed (Tux and Smeggie, Eggs to a lesser degree) but Lemony and Mew turn into demons if you scruff them, and they're very friendly cats normally. I think it would depend on the cat as to how well they handled it.

Soooooo glad I'm not a groomer any longer. *happy sigh*

I didn't know what a binder clip was, either. If it is indeed like a school binder, I would never use one on my cats. It's too sharp and pinchy. I've accidentally scratched a cat with my fingernails before when scruffing it, and they're not nearly as long or sharp as a binder clip. I think it could be pretty dangerous.

A binder clip isn't the same as a school binder. It's this:

http://www.astrogoth.com/~reeses/media/skype_headset/binder_clip.jpg

http://www.jwodcatalog.com/imgLg/7510002855995gp.jpg

A binder clip isn't the same as a school binder. It's this:

http://www.astrogoth.com/~reeses/media/skype_headset/binder_clip.jpg

http://www.jwodcatalog.com/imgLg/7510002855995gp.jpg


Ooooooh, I see. Thanks for showing me! I don't know if that would hurt or not, I've never tried it. :confused: Interesting idea at least, though I think the black ones grip quite hard from what I remember <school was a while ago!:emba:).

Any time a discussion about "scruffing" a cat comes up, I believe it is always best to advise anyone attempting to do it not to unless you know what you are doing. We, as humans using our hands, do not in any way, shape or form resemble a mother cat when we "scruff" a kitten or cat and can potentially cause a lot of pain or injury if we don't do it right. NEVER, EVER dangle a scruffed cat or kitten ... ALWAYS support the back legs.

Any time a discussion about "scruffing" a cat comes up, I believe it is always best to advise anyone attempting to do it not to unless you know what you are doing. We, as humans using our hands, do not in any way, shape or form resemble a mother cat when we "scruff" a kitten or cat and can potentially cause a lot of pain or injury if we don't do it right. NEVER, EVER dangle a scruffed cat or kitten ... ALWAYS support the back legs.

Agreed.
If I'm not mistaken, when a mother cat carries a kitten, does she not hold it by it's entire neck, not just it's skin?
Like this (forgive me using a lion, I couldn't find any cat pics)
http://www.sowashco.k12.mn.us/ro/teachers/vogel/02-03/dr/lioncub.jpg
I'm always amazed they can do that without puncturing them with their fangs.

You bring up a very good point, Gomer, thank you. Having been a breeder, I have watched with great interest my queen "traveling" with her kittens. When she picks them up, she is not dangling them by the skin at the scruff of their necks ... she carried them with her teeth wrapped loosely ~around~ their shoulder area. My little Pearl, daughter of Tonka and Lexus and now beloved pet to Maury and Gaye, took a while to be real fast or steady on her feet when she was younger and Lex just got horribly frustrated with it all ... Lexus ended up transporting Pearl most all of the time so they could go faster and get there quicker. In fact, Lexus carted poor Pearl around so frequently that now, in order to stop Pearl dead in her tracks when I have to, all I must do is place my fingers on either side of her shoulders and she goes limp so I can pick her up.

In fact, Lexus carted poor Pearl around so frequently that now, in order to stop Pearl dead in her tracks when I have to, all I must do is place my fingers on either side of her shoulders and she goes limp so I can pick her up.

That's funny. Now many animals come with an 'off' button. :D

That's funny. Now many animals come with an 'off' button. :D

Oh too funny! I had never thought of it as an "off button". *giggle*

I think it's worth noting that attaching clips to a cat's scruff (thread topic) and picking up and carrying a cat by its scruff are two different things. ;)

The question was whether clips are cruel and cause pain. Clipping is unlikely to actually cause harm, whereas "scruffing" in the sense of actually picking up and carrying a cat by its scruff can actually cause harm if not done properly.

I think it's worth noting that attaching clips to a cat's scruff (thread topic) and picking up and carrying a cat by its scruff are two different things. ;)

The question was whether clips are cruel and cause pain. Clipping is unlikely to actually cause harm, whereas "scruffing" in the sense of actually picking up and carrying a cat by its scruff can actually cause harm if not done properly.

Just curious how anyone would know what does and doesn't cause pain in a cat?

By their reaction.

I once discovered a bite injury on Twinkie that was too small and too buried under fur to see because of his pain reaction when I touched him in that area. He reacted by tensing up, growling, and turning to give me a warning bite, all which were highly unusual for him and alerted me that something was wrong.

I think too much is put in the old "cats hide pain" -- they'll definitely let you know when it hurts. It might not be shouting "Owwww!!!" -- it might be something more subtle. But if you're paying attention, you'll know it. :)

After unsuccessfully trying to give Rocket a dose of Strongid and receiving a couple nasty scratches I decided to give the clothespins a try. He didn't make any resistance while I was attaching them and gave no sign that they were causing him any pain. As far as subduing him, I'd have to say that the slowed him down a little but didn't prevent him from resisting. They gave me about two extra seconds I didn't have otherwise to squirt the medicine in his mouth. That was just barely enough time. It seemed like he had to make a concious decision to resist and then overcome some internal resistance in order to struggle. It wasn't an immediate reaction like it was without the clothespins. It was kind of an interesting experiment. :)

On a similar note, I had one cat who would become very calm and still if you cupped your hands over his ears, covering them so he could hear less. I don't know if this would work with every cat. And it would require two people, if you wanted to use it with grooming.